Episode 2 (EN): BusinessShift – Sustainability Regulations: How Companies Can Act Smartly and Pragmatically

00:00:00: BusinessShift.

00:00:05: BusinessShift.

00:00:06: The podcast for decision makers and executives who want to deal with the topic of sustainability

00:00:11: in a sustainable way.

00:00:14: Welcome to BusinessShift, the podcast that changes perspectives and explores the question

00:00:18: of how to make more out of business, namely sustainable and future proof.

00:00:24: I'm Tobias Kirchhoff, your host from TÜV Rheinland and at my side in the studio I welcome

00:00:29: our sustainability expert from TÜV Rheinland, Dr. Bahar Cat-Krause again today.

00:00:34: Welcome Bahar.

00:00:35: Hello Tobias, nice to have me back at it.

00:00:37: I'm also very happy that you're here again today.

00:00:39: In court and on the high seas you are in God's hands.

00:00:42: Is that really true, especially with regard to German and European sustainability legislation?

00:00:47: In any case, there are quite a few companies that see it that way and therefore seek the

00:00:51: advice of lawyers who are familiar with it.

00:00:54: One of these lawyers we have him as our guest in our studio today.

00:00:58: A multi-award winning lawyer and sought after speaker.

00:01:01: Dr. Christoph Schork from the law firm Heuking, Kühn, Lüer, Wojtek.

00:01:05: Dear Christoph, welcome.

00:01:06: Hello Tobias, I'm glad I'm here.

00:01:09: Christoph, you have the following quote.

00:01:11: We will only master global challenges such as climate change and the protection of natural

00:01:15: resources if we remain technologically open and look for innovative solutions.

00:01:21: Instead of bans, I rely on research and clever ideas.

00:01:24: Of course, the question immediately arises, how cleverly and innovatively has Germany

00:01:29: regulated the topic of sustainability so far in your view?

00:01:33: There is still a lot of room for improvement, I would say.

00:01:36: So maybe take a step back how cleverly has Germany regulated this?

00:01:39: Germany has to regulate many things that it is actually served by the EU, so to speak.

00:01:44: And there we are actually already in the middle of the whole topic.

00:01:47: Germany has taken a few initiatives.

00:01:49: The supply chain act, we were a bit of a front runner there.

00:01:51: And there are many other things that Germany will have to implement in the future.

00:01:55: Yes, Germany simply has to implement laws from the EU into German law and then the problem

00:01:58: starts.

00:01:59: What a mess.

00:02:00: I'll call it that regulation, i.e. laws, norms are we talking about?

00:02:04: Are we talking about thousands of laws or what?

00:02:06: How many laws are in the making per se are important at the moment?

00:02:09: I haven't counted it, but there are already a few.

00:02:12: Yes, these are large clusters.

00:02:13: So of course, that's a lot of climate, that's a lot of human rights.

00:02:17: There is this term ESG, so you can actually sort it wonderfully under it.

00:02:21: Social, social and governmental.

00:02:22: These are the three generic terms to categorize everything.

00:02:25: And often it's also sub areas that you somehow say we have to do something about it again.

00:02:29: It's not uniform.

00:02:30: I think we counted about 60, which are under discussion or already through.

00:02:34: That's quite a lot, I would say.

00:02:36: Absolutely.

00:02:37: And we see that our customers ask us this in projects too.

00:02:39: And I'm also interested in your thoughts, Christoph.

00:02:42: If it is actually going in the direction of the supply chain due diligence act, it is going

00:02:46: in the direction of green claims so slowly.

00:02:48: And it is going in the direction of the deforestation act, for example, or of course, everything

00:02:52: that has to do with reporting CSRD.

00:02:55: Would you confirm that?

00:02:56: Are these the most important ones?

00:02:58: At least these are the ones that are on everyone's mind at the moment, because there is sometimes

00:03:01: real pressure on it.

00:03:02: They have to be implemented.

00:03:03: There are deadlines.

00:03:04: So these are exactly the ones you mentioned who I think are all a bit upset at the moment,

00:03:09: whereby you say, yes, it's actually a good thing.

00:03:11: For example, human rights.

00:03:13: I don't think anyone will say they are not in favor of human rights.

00:03:16: Only when he starts and implements all this does he notice quite a lot of work, quite

00:03:19: tedious.

00:03:20: Then I somehow need people who do it and help me.

00:03:22: Then I have to do a relatively large amount of reporting.

00:03:25: I think that's why too hard-speech in people's chests.

00:03:28: Actually they think it's good.

00:03:30: And when it's their turn, they just curse.

00:03:32: Often they come to us and we help them a little.

00:03:34: Tobias, you also asked the question, is the legislation wise?

00:03:37: I also think that's an important question, because I would always expect legislation to

00:03:41: be coordinated somehow to go hand in hand.

00:03:43: This means that if I have the CSRD, then of course elements of the supply chain due diligence

00:03:48: act are also stored there somehow.

00:03:50: What is your assessment there?

00:03:51: Do we have to keep refocusing on what the individual topics are?

00:03:54: So my experience is that it is not always easy to put the requirements on top of each

00:03:58: other.

00:03:59: You're right.

00:04:00: If you were to ask the question again now, are they clever?

00:04:02: I would say yes, they are totally clever, the laws, because they fulfill the goal behind

00:04:06: them.

00:04:07: So for example, you mentioned the deforestation regulation, which is a European regulation.

00:04:12: It is now being postponed again, but it will come shortly and it is actually supposed to

00:04:15: ensure that products that are sold here in the EU are deforestation free.

00:04:20: Everyone will say it's such a smart thing and it works.

00:04:21: The way the law is made, it works.

00:04:24: It will lead to the fact that there are no more products here that are not deforestation

00:04:27: free.

00:04:28: The problem with the matter is that it is so complicated, there are so many things to do,

00:04:33: that the path to it cannot be fulfilled in principle or can only be fulfilled with great

00:04:37: difficulty.

00:04:38: And that's actually our problem.

00:04:40: So smart laws and somehow in the implementation, I would rather give a four.

00:04:44: To unravel the matter piece by piece, let's perhaps approach it from the entrepreneur's

00:04:48: point of view.

00:04:49: So I'm an entrepreneur, so I want to continue to be economically successful and I want to

00:04:54: be sustainable.

00:04:55: What is the most important thing about these new sustainable laws, these sustainability

00:05:00: laws that I have to take care of in order to comply with them?

00:05:04: Yes, maybe speaking a bit from the experience of the last few years, I think it's always

00:05:07: incredibly important to know what has priority for me and the legislation, which is always

00:05:12: aimed at a certain company size, turnover size.

00:05:15: And of course, the first step would be to look first, am I affected by regulation and

00:05:19: legislation at all?

00:05:20: If not, it still doesn't mean that I can just wait and sit.

00:05:23: But of course, there are also requirements that then arrive from business partners, for

00:05:28: example, where they say, okay, I am obliged to report, I have to report my emissions.

00:05:33: And that of course, also includes the emissions from my supply chain.

00:05:36: That means that I then of course ask my suppliers directly.

00:05:39: That means to come back to your question, I think it's important to orient yourself

00:05:42: and really look at where I stand, really determine my status quo and say, okay, what

00:05:47: are the topics that affect me directly in practice, my company, my industry, in order

00:05:52: to prepare myself accordingly.

00:05:54: And if I'm then of course affected by regulation, then I'll hand over to you, Christoph.

00:05:58: Then I'll be interested to know what it's like.

00:06:00: You've already said it great in principle.

00:06:01: So of course, you can be directly affected.

00:06:03: Then the law applies to you, then you have to implement it, then there are deadlines.

00:06:06: You have already mentioned the second point, which I think is almost more important.

00:06:10: Many who do not fall under the legal standards because they are too small, for example, are

00:06:14: often in such a customer-supplier relationship.

00:06:16: And the customer possibly from this supplier, from this small company wants to comply with

00:06:20: the law.

00:06:21: So he asks you, are you doing it too?

00:06:23: Because if you don't do it, then I can't do it either.

00:06:24: If I have to do such a risk analysis and check whether I, as a large company, the affected

00:06:28: company comply with the laws and human rights in this case, then of course I have to ask

00:06:33: my supplier, the small company.

00:06:35: It's like a trickle-down effect.

00:06:36: It trickles through from top to bottom and ultimately a kind of indirect effect.

00:06:40: And then I'm right in the middle of it, even though I don't fall under the law at all.

00:06:43: Then I have to do it anyway to satisfy my customer.

00:06:46: But now a little butter with the fish.

00:06:48: You are really legal.

00:06:49: You always say it depends.

00:06:51: But I'll really say from practice that I'm a medium-sized company.

00:06:54: Maybe I have one or two suppliers from abroad, from other European countries.

00:06:59: What do you encounter in practice?

00:07:01: Keyword legislation, keyword regulation.

00:07:03: These are perhaps two things again, but let's start with legislation first.

00:07:07: We do indeed have, and this is sometimes a bit frightening, blind spots.

00:07:10: Because sometimes we can't really determine where the raw materials actually come from.

00:07:13: At least not if the entire supply chain is to be mapped.

00:07:16: I think that's really a high risk.

00:07:18: That's why, of course, such a law also has a chance to say, okay, I have to sit down and

00:07:22: really do supplier management and see what are the most important raw materials that

00:07:26: I source.

00:07:27: What are the most important suppliers?

00:07:29: Where are they actually located?

00:07:30: To really get an overview, are they in high-risk countries?

00:07:33: You never had to.

00:07:34: It was always about the quality being right.

00:07:36: Then you looked into your supply chain.

00:07:38: If the quality was bad, then the whole supply chain was immediately gone.

00:07:42: Did you run through it and look where was the problem?

00:07:44: But the topic of human rights was uninteresting.

00:07:47: You have always looked, go where it is cheapest.

00:07:50: Then supply chains formed.

00:07:51: The difference, as you just mentioned, is that now you have to create transparency now.

00:07:56: You now have to make sure that you also look somewhere back to see if human rights are

00:07:59: still being observed.

00:08:00: This is new and causes problems because no one had to do it.

00:08:03: That is, in terms of regulation, I'll take it with me.

00:08:06: Supply chain due diligence act is important.

00:08:09: That's where we look at whether social standards, human rights and environmental issues are

00:08:13: complied with within the supply chain.

00:08:15: Yes, it's also there, but it's always a bit focused on human rights.

00:08:19: Environment with human rights, I want to put it simply.

00:08:21: Another topic seems to be, Bahar.

00:08:23: You mentioned it earlier.

00:08:24: Also reporting.

00:08:25: Take a look in the direction of Christoph.

00:08:27: Is this also an issue for you from a legal point of view?

00:08:30: This is a total topic.

00:08:32: And that is also the topic that upsets everyone.

00:08:35: And on the other hand, it's just incredibly tedious.

00:08:37: I really have to then, well, you can imagine I have to do exams beforehand so that I can

00:08:41: write anything down at all.

00:08:43: So that's exactly the core of what everyone is upset about, namely the bureaucracy, because

00:08:48: these reports are incredibly complex.

00:08:51: The company has to submit a sustainability report as part of its annual reporting.

00:08:55: And it has certain requirements, certain things have to be checked, certain questions have

00:08:59: to be clarified beforehand.

00:09:00: And that is time consuming.

00:09:02: It is also audited by the way.

00:09:04: So just like the annual financial statements, it is audited by an auditor.

00:09:07: So I can't write anything down there.

00:09:09: I mean, it's time consuming, but I think the biggest challenge is really to structure yourself

00:09:14: and see what I have.

00:09:15: What do I need?

00:09:16: Because this preparatory work was often not done at all in the context of sustainability

00:09:20: activities.

00:09:21: Many things may already be available, but you really have to go completely into the

00:09:24: company and really analyze all the topics completely.

00:09:27: And that's just very, very time consuming.

00:09:29: And if the know how is also missing, then it gets chaotic relatively quickly, I'll say.

00:09:34: And that just feels difficult.

00:09:35: Because you mentioned this earlier, I would even take a step further if you haven't sensitized

00:09:38: people to the topic at all.

00:09:40: They have to be taken along somehow.

00:09:42: You have to tell them that sustainability is now something that won't go away.

00:09:46: That's here now and it's not all bad for us.

00:09:47: Yes.

00:09:48: If you're looking for new employees, they usually think sustainability is good, so that's

00:09:52: also an asset.

00:09:53: But you actually have to get the whole organization, the whole company excited about this sustainability

00:09:57: a little bit first.

00:09:59: So I'll take a look at you, Bahar.

00:10:01: That's something you've been doing for years, so to speak, to somehow adopt sustainability

00:10:05: as a mindset.

00:10:07: Total.

00:10:08: You can't expect everyone to know exactly what is required, right?

00:10:11: Often you get such a task on the table.

00:10:13: And then the big question is always, okay, what data do I need and where do I get it in

00:10:17: the first place?

00:10:19: And who even knows what data we have?

00:10:21: That means we have to say very, very often that we first have to set up a communication

00:10:25: strategy internally and say, okay, who are the people involved?

00:10:28: Who can deliver what?

00:10:29: And that's actually always the very first step for me to say, okay, who actually knows

00:10:32: what and where do we get the data from?

00:10:35: Data is a total topic.

00:10:36: Yes.

00:10:37: And I think that's really the biggest hurdle we have internally, the internal data.

00:10:41: And we already see major challenges in the company itself.

00:10:43: If we then also go into the supply chain, then you can certainly imagine to bias how bustling

00:10:48: it can be.

00:10:49: But then I would say as an entrepreneur, so I'll put the topic aside.

00:10:53: And I'll take care of other things first, but that's not supposed to be the purpose

00:10:57: of the thing.

00:10:59: At the moment when we talk about regulation, it sounds like the word itself, it doesn't

00:11:03: have such a positive connotation, but that this is an extreme additional effort when

00:11:07: I deal with the law, with sustainability, because as a non-expert, I don't even know

00:11:11: at first.

00:11:12: But what do I have to do to first provide this proof for the law, which does not mean

00:11:17: that I am actively pursuing sustainability?

00:11:19: Absolutely right.

00:11:20: And quite honestly, we also learn anew every day, because these are all new laws.

00:11:24: There is no best practice.

00:11:26: You can't open a book and then say, now I'll read it on page five from 59.

00:11:30: So that's new for everyone where you address the entrepreneur.

00:11:33: I often really have entrepreneurs who sit there and don't really feel like it.

00:11:36: Unfortunately, you have to say that.

00:11:38: I can understand that.

00:11:39: It is another task that must now also be fulfilled in addition to the climate, in addition to

00:11:43: the energy crisis.

00:11:44: And what do I know what else is on the table?

00:11:47: But if it starts like this, that the managing director somehow says, actually totally annoying,

00:11:52: then you can't really do it.

00:11:53: How do you do that with your customers or clients?

00:11:55: Because I always try to say, look, this is a requirement now.

00:11:57: We have to get through it now.

00:11:58: But actually, it's also a chance for you to orient yourself and position yourself in such

00:12:02: a way that you can get ahead.

00:12:04: Really fit for the future.

00:12:05: Be honest, if a major customer now asks me for CO2 data or human rights in the supply

00:12:10: chain and I can't give any information, then it might go well for three, four, maybe five

00:12:14: years.

00:12:15: But at some point, I'll be out of the window.

00:12:16: Right?

00:12:17: Shouldn't that actually motivate a company to say, OK, in order to be able to exist at

00:12:21: all to remain marketable at all, I don't really have any other choice?

00:12:24: Absolutely right.

00:12:25: So I'd say that's a future.

00:12:27: Yes.

00:12:28: So you create your new products because consumers also want to be sustainable.

00:12:30: They also want the environment not to be harmed, that the climate is OK.

00:12:34: So I think it's a big asset.

00:12:35: Only if you have this topic on the table now, then you don't think about your future.

00:12:38: Yes, the way we do it.

00:12:40: Who then somehow who look a little bit into the future, then you have this jumble of things

00:12:44: that you don't understand that are complicated that you don't really have people for.

00:12:49: So and in this mixed situation, they come to us.

00:12:52: Yes.

00:12:53: Then they sit there.

00:12:54: I had a case where it started the same way.

00:12:56: Somehow it wasn't just one managing director.

00:12:58: There were four of them.

00:12:59: And they all agreed that it was totally annoying and that you didn't really need it.

00:13:03: Then we did the following.

00:13:04: I didn't unpack the point you raised to say, look, this is good for you.

00:13:07: This is the future that would have been great for you because they were still in such an

00:13:10: area retail where I think that plays a big role also by the customers.

00:13:15: But what did we do then?

00:13:16: We then said, OK, now let's try to do the whole thing pragmatically.

00:13:20: We'll try to do the bare minimum here and on the basis.

00:13:23: Then we already have something.

00:13:24: Then we already have a foundation.

00:13:26: And next year we'll do it a little better, a little bit that convinced them.

00:13:30: That would be for now.

00:13:31: We do the basics.

00:13:32: Yes.

00:13:33: And then we build on that.

00:13:34: And if we don't see this giant forest, the 1000 trees, so to speak, we don't see the

00:13:37: forest anymore.

00:13:38: That's how we managed it.

00:13:40: In the meantime, things are going well for them.

00:13:42: They have slowly implemented it and now they are getting better and better.

00:13:46: Well I would prefer it like this, you know, to convince them.

00:13:49: But sometimes you have to do a little.

00:13:50: I actually have a specific question or your assessment because it is said that the regulation,

00:13:56: be it the supply chain due diligence act or on the subject of CSRD has currently caused

00:14:00: a bit of confusion in Germany due to certain voices from politics.

00:14:04: Do we actually have to do the whole thing at all or can we perhaps wait and see?

00:14:07: So we also notice also in conversations with our customers that everyone hesitates a bit

00:14:12: at first and says, okay, maybe we have...

00:14:14: to wait and see what happens before we continue.

00:14:17: Especially with projects that are now so new to us, it is always the case that the question

00:14:22: comes, "Yes, what is the situation now?

00:14:24: Do I have to do it now or maybe I'll wait a little longer?"

00:14:27: That's actually such a disaster, honestly.

00:14:29: I have dealt with the supply chain law for four years now and it has been dead three

00:14:32: times.

00:14:33: And three times you didn't know, what you did here was for nothing or not.

00:14:37: And we are actually in exactly this situation at the moment.

00:14:40: A minister comes here who says, "This can go now."

00:14:42: And the next one says, "We're going to bolt it away with the chainsaw somehow."

00:14:46: And then you stand there, who has now dealt with it a bit, and say, "Wait a minute, we

00:14:50: have passed a law enforced by the Bundestag here.

00:14:52: You can't just bolt it away."

00:14:54: That doesn't work.

00:14:55: And above all, there are a lot of companies that have put in a lot of work in the last

00:14:58: few months to implement this.

00:14:59: How unfair is that?

00:15:00: Yes, and then now comes a point, when I look further and think about it, then I realize,

00:15:05: "Oh, CSRD.

00:15:06: All the stuff is in there too, then I have to do that too, right?"

00:15:09: So nothing with bolting away, I have to do it anyway.

00:15:11: So for me, I don't want to do bashing here, but politicians have a hard time seeing the

00:15:15: big lines here.

00:15:16: That's my impression.

00:15:17: And that leads to the fact that nobody, as you described it, exactly like that.

00:15:21: No one knows what applies now and then.

00:15:23: You drop the pen very quickly and say, "I'll wait and see," before I bend over backwards

00:15:27: here.

00:15:28: But your advice is definitely to keep going, because nothing will get blasted away.

00:15:31: Definitely.

00:15:32: So this won't go away.

00:15:33: We can't leave.

00:15:34: Yes, so you can see that positively or negatively.

00:15:36: I see it positively.

00:15:37: I think it's also for a modern society and also for a modern company.

00:15:40: That's a good thing.

00:15:41: The advantages outweigh the disadvantages, we already mentioned it.

00:15:45: Whether it's recruiting or whether these are products that are sustainable, they sell

00:15:48: better, you can't get rid of that.

00:15:50: And you can, in the way you approach the issues, you can start with 100% or with 75%, right?

00:15:55: And then continue so that you can get back into it immediately when things continue.

00:15:59: But definitely the situation is difficult.

00:16:01: And I understand the companies.

00:16:02: I feel sorry for them, the companies.

00:16:05: But keep going.

00:16:06: Keep going.

00:16:07: Please don't drop everything.

00:16:08: A little less gas, perhaps.

00:16:09: I would now like to get out of the emotion a bit that it may not be in vogue at the

00:16:13: moment to bring the supply chain due diligence act forward and simply go further.

00:16:16: Well, we've talked about it now.

00:16:18: We've also touched on the whole topic of reporting a bit.

00:16:21: And since we have you here, Christoph, what is happening in regulation from the legislation?

00:16:26: What is in store for us?

00:16:27: Or what is important from your point of view?

00:16:29: What should entrepreneurs know?

00:16:31: Which laws are relevant at the moment?

00:16:32: Yes, perhaps you can't give such a general answer to that, because every company has

00:16:36: its focus, of course.

00:16:37: If I somehow produce cement now, yes.

00:16:39: And then of course the climate issue is very central to me.

00:16:42: Yes, because a lot of CO2 is produced in cement production.

00:16:45: If I have a service company, it's something else again.

00:16:47: Well, you can't say that in such a general way.

00:16:50: There are a few laws, which we have all touched on a bit here, which have a greater significance

00:16:54: for many than they still think today.

00:16:56: That is this deforestation ordinance.

00:16:58: It's about just very briefly that we might shed a little light on it.

00:17:02: So there are certain raw materials that are related to deforestation.

00:17:05: Yes.

00:17:06: So with cocoa, coffee, I think that makes sense to everyone, including cattle, which

00:17:11: graze on areas that have previously been deforested.

00:17:14: This is also a raw material.

00:17:15: The others are wood, soy, oil palm, from which palm oil is made, and rubber.

00:17:20: So seven in total.

00:17:22: I hope I haven't forgotten anyone now.

00:17:24: And of course you can make a variety of products from them.

00:17:26: It all has a customs number.

00:17:28: And so the problems start to find out first.

00:17:29: I'm affected by it.

00:17:31: And I would always recommend that companies do the same, because the consequence is that

00:17:35: if they have these products that have such a customs number and then fall under this

00:17:38: deforestation ordinance, then they have to prove that their product has been produced

00:17:43: without deforestation.

00:17:44: And they have to confirm this in a statement, a so-called due diligence declaration.

00:17:48: And if you don't do that, then you are not allowed to sell your product here in the EU

00:17:52: market.

00:17:53: I don't think I need to say what that means anymore.

00:17:55: No, because you always think that's six, let's say six focus raw materials.

00:17:59: There are actually seven.

00:18:00: Seven exactly.

00:18:01: But the way you say it, they go into quite a few products.

00:18:04: Is there a list of these customs numbers or how can I find out about them?

00:18:08: One 200 pages with exceptions and changes and so on.

00:18:12: That's just what we mean here, where it just gets difficult where you as a company, if

00:18:16: you don't deal with it, don't have a customs department, you can't do it.

00:18:19: And the question is always who checks it?

00:18:20: There is an institution, the federal office for agriculture and food, which is responsible

00:18:24: for it, so to speak.

00:18:25: And it is supposed to check it.

00:18:26: That's a good question.

00:18:27: Yes, because they have to somehow have the people who are there in turn with the supply

00:18:31: chain act.

00:18:32: I think they somehow hired 150 people and they then diligently wrote letters and asked

00:18:36: the companies if they had done everything.

00:18:37: Of course, the companies didn't find that so funny either, because then there was always

00:18:41: an uproar when such a letter came.

00:18:43: So we'll see this deforestation order has now been postponed by a year.

00:18:46: So it starts on January 1st, 2026.

00:18:49: And then it has to run.

00:18:50: And as I said, it is forbidden to sell products that do not come from deforestation free pro

00:18:54: substances here in the EU.

00:18:56: I find that remarkable.

00:18:58: Very few people know that.

00:18:59: And maybe one more point to round it off.

00:19:01: I've talked enough about burger patty now, but palm oil, for example, you can make all

00:19:05: kinds of things out of palm oil, but not everything is possible under this regulation.

00:19:09: You can make a soap from palm oil, for example, but the soap is not in the list.

00:19:13: So you could sell the soap made from palm oil without proof of deforestation.

00:19:17: You could also sell a car without further ado.

00:19:19: It is not in the list either.

00:19:21: But if you now only make the tire, for example, or the ceiling ring of the car from rubber

00:19:25: and were to sell it alone, then you would have to comply with this regulation, so to

00:19:28: speak.

00:19:29: Very complicated.

00:19:30: Did you get it?

00:19:31: Yes, yes.

00:19:32: I think so.

00:19:33: I'm happy about that.

00:19:34: Yes, and I'm also glad that I have you both here in the studio because you see me here

00:19:38: amazed, yes, done with happiness because of the regulation and because of the complexity

00:19:43: of what opposes the companies.

00:19:45: That's why I would perhaps go out of the laws again.

00:19:48: So you say, OK, how can I oppose that?

00:19:50: And I do so by analyzing what is important for me.

00:19:54: What do my processes look like?

00:19:56: What is crucial for me?

00:19:57: But how can I perhaps also as a company, I come from the other side now, what can I do?

00:20:02: How can I actively avoid mistakes?

00:20:04: That is, there seem to be laws that I may never have heard of as an entrepreneur.

00:20:09: Then the whole upright discussion about it, and I almost have to be careful that I really

00:20:13: touch on the topics that are relevant to me.

00:20:16: Yes, for example, when I have environmental issues, when it comes to deforestation and

00:20:20: so on, how do I avoid or conversely, how can I now ensure that I can tackle as many of these

00:20:24: regulatory issues as possible?

00:20:26: Not all at once, I think that's also a good hint.

00:20:29: But how do I avoid the mistake of forgetting something important?

00:20:32: Yes, I think so.

00:20:33: If you ask me, I think there are different levels.

00:20:35: So if I know that I am obliged to bring transparency to my market activities under the EU, EDR,

00:20:41: for example, or under the supply chain due diligence act, then of course I have to see

00:20:45: where I stand again.

00:20:46: So I always start at the beginning, but it's important to really go through it and do it

00:20:50: as systematically as possible and also to say, I have to work my way there first.

00:20:54: That's why it's always difficult to wait and see because you really have to approach

00:20:57: the whole thing step by step.

00:21:00: It's a process.

00:21:01: We all learn it has to be said.

00:21:03: Nevertheless in the end, we also have sanctions that can be imposed here.

00:21:06: And to be really sure to be legally secure, I would invite Christoph, for example.

00:21:11: That's a good idea.

00:21:12: Good, then I'll play the ball to Christoph.

00:21:14: Before I am invited, I would say that I can subscribe to everything you have said.

00:21:17: It's all 100% safe.

00:21:18: We have already said that creating awareness, we would assume that now.

00:21:22: What I think what's also important is that you also have the people.

00:21:25: You may simply need a sustainability officer.

00:21:27: Yes, that's right.

00:21:28: You need a team that doesn't do it on the side, maybe 10 to five just before closing

00:21:32: time.

00:21:33: I don't think that works.

00:21:34: So you have to put a little effort into it if you want to do it.

00:21:36: If you only do it so selectively, then it's such a thing.

00:21:39: Then you somehow try to plug the gaps everywhere and still don't get ready.

00:21:43: Something slips through your fingers.

00:21:45: Get to the point.

00:21:46: I am a company.

00:21:47: Bahar, Christoph, I am coming to you and to you.

00:21:50: I have some initial ideas.

00:21:52: I have to do something.

00:21:53: I want to do something in the area of sustainability.

00:21:55: Bahar, Christoph, help me.

00:21:58: What do I have to do?

00:21:59: How do we proceed together?

00:22:02: So butter to the fish.

00:22:03: I would then ask you first of all, what do you actually do?

00:22:06: What is your product?

00:22:08: Where do you actually manufacture the product?

00:22:10: Do you have a supply chain?

00:22:11: What kind of raw materials do you use?

00:22:14: So those would be the questions I would ask you.

00:22:16: I would look very much at the value chain and at your product, your employees, where

00:22:19: you work, what comes out in the end.

00:22:21: Those would be the things I would look at and then we could probably sort out some things.

00:22:24: So for example, if you now produce steel, then you certainly have a CO2 issue because

00:22:29: that I think everyone knows a lot of CO2 is emitted in the steel production of conventional

00:22:35: steel.

00:22:36: If you are an insurance company now, then I would ask you other questions.

00:22:38: Then you are a service provider or have a product that can by no means be compared with

00:22:42: steel.

00:22:43: Then we could certainly sort out certain things.

00:22:45: We would probably sort climate protection further down.

00:22:47: There are also climate issues in insurance, but they are certainly structured differently.

00:22:51: So if you came to me in general, I would first ask you a few questions and try to find out

00:22:56: where your points actually are.

00:22:57: What's a bit tricky?

00:22:58: Don't know how you perceive that is like this.

00:23:00: There's no one size fits all theme.

00:23:01: Well, there is no checklist with which we go through it, but we just have to find out.

00:23:05: And the truth is that most of them come to us with very specific questions because they

00:23:10: have already thought about it a bit beforehand.

00:23:12: Yes, absolutely.

00:23:13: So of course, you always have to look at companies, production, etc.

00:23:17: So the first thing we would do in a very practical way would be to say, okay, if you really have

00:23:21: no idea where you stand, what you have to do, then we'll come by, then we'll get the

00:23:26: appropriate people in the company together and do a status quo analysis and actually

00:23:31: take a close look at each other.

00:23:33: These points together in order to then really crystallize priority issues from them.

00:23:36: These can be legislations.

00:23:38: These are requirements that I have to meet, but they can also be requirements of other

00:23:41: interest groups.

00:23:42: These can also be customer requirements.

00:23:45: These can be partner requirements in order to orient oneself in this, I'll say now jungle

00:23:49: and jumble and chaos.

00:23:51: So really the first step, it's always important that the right people are there.

00:23:55: And then you can start to look step by step.

00:23:57: What are the priorities I have?

00:23:58: What have I perhaps already done?

00:24:00: What is my goal?

00:24:01: How do I want to get there?

00:24:02: And step by step, we would really shimmy a bit to say, okay, we might have focus topics

00:24:06: like climate because I come from the cement industry, for example.

00:24:09: Do I have data there?

00:24:11: If not, how do I get data?

00:24:12: What do I have to do?

00:24:13: So really work your way there step by step.

00:24:15: Yes.

00:24:16: Well, you've already mentioned it, the data thing.

00:24:17: I think that's very central.

00:24:19: This is a structural task, how you get the data, how you process it, how you manage it

00:24:24: so that you get the right results.

00:24:25: And that's when you realize actually you need resources and you also need people who

00:24:29: have a bit of a clue.

00:24:31: Nobody fell from the sky.

00:24:32: Yes, you could.

00:24:33: Well, except for Bahar, I think she did.

00:24:34: I didn't fall from the sky either.

00:24:36: Yes, but you dealt with the topics very early on.

00:24:38: So I don't know how long, but yes, for a while, certainly over 15 years now for 15 years,

00:24:43: everything here was still diaspora as far as sustainability was concerned.

00:24:47: I've been doing it for five years now.

00:24:48: I think it's been a long time, but most of the people who are slipping into it now have

00:24:52: done something completely different.

00:24:54: And then the company also has to say, okay, you're going to do it now, but I'll also

00:24:57: send you to a training course.

00:24:58: Yes, I'll train you.

00:24:59: I'll give you a little bit so that you can get into it.

00:25:01: I don't expect you to be able to do almost everything yet.

00:25:04: I believe that this is also part of the truth.

00:25:07: That means you need the right people who are up for it and who want to participate and you

00:25:10: have to train them.

00:25:11: So I think you'll probably confirm that as well.

00:25:14: Absolutely.

00:25:15: The cross-section of the company.

00:25:16: Exactly.

00:25:17: You need someone from the purchasing department to do procurement.

00:25:19: You need a logistics specialist, maybe even someone from IT, HR.

00:25:23: So this is a very broad field.

00:25:24: I actually have to bring them to the table and they just have to tell them.

00:25:27: I often have the situation, oh, I didn't even know that we were doing this.

00:25:31: That's exciting.

00:25:32: Because they don't talk to each other about the topics.

00:25:35: And then to come back to your question, of course, you have a few things, but they already

00:25:39: know them, the companies that at some point, for example, they will have over 1,000 employees

00:25:46: and may have to comply with this supply chain law or they know that their product emits

00:25:50: a lot of CO2, i.e. a lot of CO2 that they already know or that they produce a lot of

00:25:55: waste or whatever.

00:25:57: So there they know that and you can say relatively quickly, okay, that applies to you.

00:26:01: Let's take a look at it now.

00:26:02: Are there certain industries that are already more on the way probably energy-intensive companies

00:26:07: than others?

00:26:08: In other words, for those who say that the topic of regulation and laws is effective

00:26:12: for us, do you see any tendencies there?

00:26:15: That's definitely the case.

00:26:16: Yes.

00:26:17: So we can form a few clusters there.

00:26:18: So if you are now a brand manufacturer, for example, then you have more of a greenwashing

00:26:23: issue to look at whether your product is properly labeled.

00:26:26: That would be a cluster, for example.

00:26:27: We talked about cement steel.

00:26:29: You are in the climate sector.

00:26:30: If you use critical raw materials where everyone knows, textiles, for example, some food, cocoa

00:26:35: bananas, where human rights violations are more commonplace.

00:26:39: Think of the example where factories burned down somewhere in Asia because people couldn't

00:26:42: get out of the factories.

00:26:43: These are human rights issues that were in the textile sector.

00:26:46: So you immediately know where to look.

00:26:48: So these clusters exist and you can shimmy along them for a long time.

00:26:51: Dear Bahar, dear Christoph, unfortunately time has flown by and so we have to come to an

00:26:56: end.

00:26:57: I would like to thank you very much for this very extraordinary episode.

00:27:00: I've learned a lot about laws, regulations.

00:27:03: I have to see which laws apply to me, to us and a big thank you to you out there for listening.

00:27:09: My name is Tobias Kirchhoff and if there is one thing we have refuted, it is that companies

00:27:14: are alone in the face of laws and regulations in terms of sustainability or only in God's

00:27:19: hands, no.

00:27:21: We have at least Bahar and also Christoph.

00:27:25: And if you, dear listeners, want to know more about sustainability in business, just stay

00:27:30: tuned.

00:27:31: Subscribe to the podcast and we will bring you the most interesting tips and stories

00:27:39: on the topic of sustainability in business, innovation and transformation in a resource

00:27:45: efficient way directly into your ear canal.

00:27:52: You can receive us wherever podcasts are available and wherever you are.

00:27:56: In the home office, in the car, in the bathroom, while ironing, walking the dog, in nature

00:28:01: with children or dogs and all information can be found as always under our show notes.

00:28:08: And we should all not forget that sustainability starts with ourselves.

00:28:13: Until next time, your business shift.

00:28:16: The podcast for decision makers and executives who want to deal with the topic of sustainability

00:28:21: in a sustainable way.

00:28:25: Stay curious.

00:28:26: Bye.

00:28:27: (air whooshing)