Episode 11 (EN): BusinessShift – Chemical Logistics in Transition @Alfred Talke

00:00:00: This English version of the podcast was created using AI-based voice synthesis from the original German recording.

00:00:06: [Music]

00:00:10: BusinessShift.

00:00:11: BusinessShift.

00:00:12: The podcast for decision makers and executives who want to deal with the topic of sustainability in a sustainable way.

00:00:18: [Music]

00:00:20: Welcome to BusinessShift, the podcast for decision makers and executives who want to make their business strategies fit for the future.

00:00:27: I'm Tobias Kirchhoff, your host from TÜV Rheinland.

00:00:30: Today we are talking about an industry that often works invisibly in the background, but is essential for our economy logistics.

00:00:38: Chemical logistics sounds very special at first, but it faces the same challenges as all other industries.

00:00:44: Sustainability, digitization and an acute shortage of skilled workers.

00:00:49: How can global supply chains be made efficient and climate friendly at the same time?

00:00:53: What role do new technologies play in compensating for staff shortages?

00:00:57: And how does the logistics industry have to transform itself in order to remain competitive?

00:01:03: Who better to answer these and many other questions than our current expert Sonja Becker, sustainability manager at Alfred Talke?

00:01:10: Dear Sonja, welcome.

00:01:12: Thank you very much Tobias.

00:01:14: And of course, a person who is always by my side must not be missing.

00:01:18: My esteemed co-moderator and sustainability expert from Tovrheinland, Dr. Baha Schadkrauser.

00:01:24: Welcome, Bahar.

00:01:25: Great to have you here.

00:01:26: Thanks for having me.

00:01:27: Hi, Sonja.

00:01:27: Hello, Bahar.

00:01:28: Thank you for the invitation.

00:01:29: So, and now we want to jump right in.

00:01:32: Sonja, Alfred Talke.

00:01:35: Maybe tell us, who is this company, Alfred Talke, for those who don't know it, and what do you do at this company?

00:01:40: Yes, very likely.

00:01:42: Yes, Alfred Talke GmbH and C. KG is a family-owned company headquartered in Hürth, nearby Cologne, in Germany.

00:01:48: We have been on the market for over 75 years now and specialize in the field of chemical logistics,

00:01:54: which means transport, storage, transfer, packaging, and so on, but also consulting on

00:01:58: engineering projects, concepts, and construction of such logistics facilities.

00:02:02: Yes, and my job there is to build up sustainability management.

00:02:06: I joined there two and a half years ago, have a staff position, and yes, hopefully I'm making

00:02:11: good progress on the topic and have developed the sustainability strategy together with the

00:02:16: management and many other colleagues.

00:02:17: And yes, I'm now in the process of preparing myself again in a very special way for the regulatory

00:02:23: challenges and getting fit for them.

00:02:25: Yes, I hope we will learn a lot from you today and maybe one or the other listener can take

00:02:30: something away from it.

00:02:31: If we look at sustainability, ESG is the buzzword in Europe, i.e. environmental,

00:02:36: social, and regulatory issues, you are active in all three areas.

00:02:39: Correct, yes.

00:02:40: Then let's start at the beginning with what you also see in the logistics industry,

00:02:44: because you transport goods from A to B. Environmental management.

00:02:48: What do you do there or what is the topic in your industry anyway?

00:02:51: Yes, environmental management, that's really a very, very big topic for us and especially

00:02:55: because of the products that we trade, that we transport, but also that we store.

00:02:59: These are hazardous substances for the most part, really the highest class of hazardous

00:03:03: substances.

00:03:04: There are also very special challenges.

00:03:05: I'll say now that regardless of the whole sustainability and ESG issue, the whole is

00:03:09: of course an issue of security.

00:03:11: How do we treat the products?

00:03:12: How do we store them so that neither the environment nor people are harmed?

00:03:16: That means it's part of our DNA from the very beginning anyway.

00:03:19: And yes, we have various ISO certifications.

00:03:21: Due to the chemical industry, we have a very special assessment.

00:03:25: It's called SCAS, which has been the basis from the very beginning, so to speak, the

00:03:29: license to operate so that we can trade these products, hazardous substances, officers,

00:03:34: and so the whole setup and especially with a view to ESG.

00:03:38: The focus is of course on climate neutrality, but also on the issue of microplastics because

00:03:42: we treat, store, transfer and transport plastics, which of course must not end up in the environment.

00:03:47: That means there is a big focus here, but also on reducing emissions because of course

00:03:51: everyone can imagine in transport, which is simply the biggest factor.

00:03:54: Let's stay directly with the emissions.

00:03:56: We'll get to plastic in a moment.

00:03:58: I find that super interesting.

00:03:59: What are you doing there to reduce emissions?

00:04:02: Do you drive less?

00:04:03: That would be a bit counterproductive because that's our business model.

00:04:07: But of course, we try to make it as low emission as possible.

00:04:10: That means on the one hand, there is the driving style, efficient driving that's

00:04:13: training for the drivers.

00:04:15: We actually always have the latest fleet.

00:04:17: If you look at Euro six now to no longer use outdated technology in terms of technology.

00:04:22: If you are now talking about conventional diesel vehicles and of course, route planning,

00:04:27: which is essential to drive the shortest possible distances and as few empty kilometers as possible.

00:04:32: These are the basics I'll say now.

00:04:33: And of course, if you then look in the direction of further development of technology,

00:04:38: we are in the process of looking at how we can use other fuels.

00:04:42: The keyword here is HVO 100.

00:04:44: This is a 100% alternative fuel made from leftovers, from waste, from oils,

00:04:49: from fats that would normally be waste.

00:04:51: So to speak, we are trying to change or of course the trend with e-trucks or hydrogen

00:04:55: to see when is it worth it.

00:04:56: When can we really make the switch?

00:04:58: Yes, you say so.

00:04:59: So alternative fuel is totally exciting.

00:05:01: The whole topic of immobility and logistics is also not so easy,

00:05:04: especially when you drive long distances with a lot of weight.

00:05:07: Do you already have experience with this?

00:05:09: Unfortunately not.

00:05:10: So not in Germany.

00:05:11: We have our subsidiary in the USA,

00:05:14: which is now gaining initial experience with the topic of hydrogen,

00:05:18: even on longer distances.

00:05:19: But in Europe, it is really still the case that the semi-trailer tractors

00:05:22: are not yet ready for series production in terms of alternative drives.

00:05:26: We estimate that we may have the first vehicles in the middle to end of the year,

00:05:31: and then of course it is also the infrastructure that is not yet in place.

00:05:34: On long distances, an e-truck is simply not yet possible for us because we can't refuel.

00:05:39: Yes, that's actually exactly that.

00:05:42: So you can change as much as you want.

00:05:44: So I was also on the road with some logistics companies and you can change,

00:05:48: but if you don't have the infrastructure actually on a long distance,

00:05:51: so that you also know that I will arrive and can also refuel with the fuel that I need at the moment,

00:05:57: no matter what it is, then you only have a certain handle.

00:06:01: You are also talking to your customers and especially on the topic of infrastructure,

00:06:06: do you have opportunities to help shape it or are you really completely dependent on others?

00:06:11: So the goal would be because we are already driving more medium distances,

00:06:14: which means that our planning is actually more that we do deeper refueling.

00:06:18: That is that we want to try to set up our own photovoltaic systems, for example,

00:06:23: and always refuel overnight.

00:06:24: But of course, you also need the storage system for this because photovoltaics then

00:06:28: only produce the electricity during the day,

00:06:31: which means that this is definitely a larger investment that we have to plan.

00:06:36: And what comes on top of that is also the refueling process itself simply takes time.

00:06:41: It would be nice if our customers also provided infrastructure at the loading and unloading points,

00:06:45: but if possible, of course, in combination with loading and unloading,

00:06:49: not additionally, because otherwise these are of course times that we have to plan for,

00:06:53: where our drivers simply have idle time.

00:06:56: Yes, exciting.

00:06:57: Yes, and if we look further now, these are the quasi-normal topics that affect a logistics company

00:07:02: or anyone who drives a vehicle from A to B, you have just mentioned also the topic of plastic.

00:07:08: When you think about environmental issues,

00:07:10: can you perhaps explain to us a little bit what you do and what the challenge is?

00:07:14: Yes, of course.

00:07:15: Yes, so we also store and drive a lot of plastics.

00:07:19: These are granules, these are small pellets, small beads, so to speak.

00:07:23: And of course, it can happen that when they are decanted into the containers

00:07:27: or when smaller bags are virtually decanted, something tears there, that something breaks,

00:07:32: that something gets into the environment.

00:07:34: And of course, we have to collect that.

00:07:36: So there can be a gust of wind and poof.

00:07:37: It's everywhere in the environment, so to speak.

00:07:39: And then you don't catch it anymore.

00:07:41: That means we have guidelines, we have rules, we train our employees.

00:07:44: How do we have to deal with it?

00:07:45: So if something like this happens, what do we have to do?

00:07:48: How do we sweep it up?

00:07:49: But we also have technical possibilities,

00:07:51: collection screens in the gullies and so on.

00:07:53: So that nothing really gets into the groundwater,

00:07:56: nothing gets into the environment.

00:07:58: And there is also a certification for this, which is called Operation Clean Sweep OCS.

00:08:03: And we stick to it.

00:08:03: We are in the initiative.

00:08:04: And in the future, there will also be a really official certification there, so to speak.

00:08:10: How is the risk management set up per location?

00:08:13: What measures are accepted?

00:08:14: And what do we have to do further to improve this

00:08:17: and prevent these microplastics from entering the environment?

00:08:20: Is that a very high proportion of microplastics?

00:08:23: So I ask myself that a bit privately,

00:08:25: because each of us is a microplastic emitter, so to speak.

00:08:28: If you think of the toothpaste of the cosmetics we use every day,

00:08:31: is that such a large proportion?

00:08:33: I mean, of course you are in the chemical industry.

00:08:36: That might be something else.

00:08:37: But the whole topic of plastic pollution, input into soil, water, etc.

00:08:42: Is it really that high?

00:08:44: That's not so high.

00:08:44: I would say now, unfortunately, I don't have any figures available.

00:08:49: No gram or kilogram numbers, but that's definitely only a minimum.

00:08:53: But in the end, it's with us.

00:08:54: If this accident in quotation marks already happens, then it counts.

00:08:57: So if it's a kilo bag, then it's the first one kilo.

00:09:01: Even if we sweep it up and also if we collect it again and dispose of it as residual waste

00:09:05: or as hazardous waste, because, hen, it is simply contaminated.

00:09:09: The customer can no longer use it.

00:09:11: Then it is first within the framework of this certification

00:09:15: or within the framework of this initiative.

00:09:17: Unfortunately, it is then garbage and happened.

00:09:19: You just mentioned it.

00:09:20: You started an initiative as part of your sustainability strategy,

00:09:23: which is called #CraftingResponsibleLogistics.

00:09:26: Can you perhaps tell us a bit what is the goal of this strategy,

00:09:29: the initiative, and where do you stand right now?

00:09:32: Yes, that was very exciting.

00:09:34: The process at the beginning that we looked at the various subject areas.

00:09:38: Of course, we looked at our customers and talked to them and we looked at the competition.

00:09:42: We have the trends, the regulations, and we have defined pillars and fields of action.

00:09:46: So to speak, where do we want to focus?

00:09:49: What do we want to do?

00:09:50: Where do we want to focus?

00:09:51: And of course, some things are obvious, such as reducing emissions in transport,

00:09:55: but some perhaps less.

00:09:57: And because before I came, this topic was not quite so structurally set up and not so organized.

00:10:03: I also first tried to bring together all the fields of action in our company

00:10:06: because we already do a lot as a family business,

00:10:09: but it was simply not bundled and communicated in such a way

00:10:12: that you can simply see what we are already doing.

00:10:14: And for me, it was important that it was then done under one motto,

00:10:18: and we are all just on the way for now.

00:10:20: Crafting for me is just designing and doing.

00:10:22: We are not there yet.

00:10:23: We would like to and we have set out on our way,

00:10:25: but it is just a design and a doing.

00:10:27: Just do it.

00:10:28: Just do it, exactly.

00:10:30: Yes, how did you start?

00:10:31: Because that's what interests me.

00:10:32: You probably came there full of enthusiasm,

00:10:35: and then I imagine now, Alfred Torker, you just said family business,

00:10:39: and then maybe two worlds meet, or how was that, and how did you do it?

00:10:43: Just do it.

00:10:44: Maybe you have to ask others.

00:10:46: I don't know if I can explain what I did there.

00:10:47: So it was already the case that the will was absolutely there,

00:10:51: both from the management, from the employees.

00:10:54: The necessity was totally seen,

00:10:55: and now not only because of the regulation or so.

00:10:58: It always seems a bit like that because that's just the pressure now,

00:11:01: and because we have to build it up now, and that's how it always works.

00:11:04: We only do it because it's now a law or something.

00:11:06: Of course, that's not true at all.

00:11:07: We wanted it.

00:11:08: We see the necessity also to find joint solutions with our customers.

00:11:13: And yes, what did I do?

00:11:15: I just asked around first, what are we doing everywhere?

00:11:17: Who has ideas?

00:11:18: Who is already doing what?

00:11:19: We are also internationally positioned.

00:11:21: The USA has a bit of a different focus than Middle East,

00:11:24: and so I first put it all together and then looked at

00:11:27: where might be the most important points that we have to tackle

00:11:29: and transport is certainly the issue.

00:11:31: But there are also the most difficult hurdles,

00:11:34: and that's why we try to collect the quick wins a bit, of course,

00:11:37: and to look at what we can do now on a smaller scale

00:11:39: with yes, the plastics, the microplastics, the electricity, such topics.

00:11:43: Yes, and you have also painted a big picture.

00:11:45: You want to be climate neutral by 2040.

00:11:48: What are the main measures you have now initiated?

00:11:50: Exactly.

00:11:51: So it's limited again.

00:11:52: It refers to scope one and two, scope three.

00:11:54: We don't dare to do that by 2040 either.

00:11:56: What do you mean by scope one and two?

00:11:58: Do you perhaps have to briefly explain to our listeners again?

00:12:01: Exactly.

00:12:01: So we said we want to be climate neutral in the areas

00:12:04: that we can influence ourselves, i.e., scope one,

00:12:07: our emissions that we emit ourselves, even that we cause ourselves,

00:12:10: and scope two in terms of energy and electricity.

00:12:13: Yes, and so if you look at our climate balance,

00:12:15: which we are now in our third year,

00:12:18: which has never been done so comprehensively before,

00:12:20: you can see that we actually make about two thirds of our transport emissions,

00:12:25: both our own and then with our subcontractors,

00:12:27: because we don't do everything either itself.

00:12:30: We have our own fleet, but we also do a lot of things through partners,

00:12:34: but that's two thirds of our emissions,

00:12:35: which means we absolutely have to go to transport.

00:12:38: We have to use HVO 100.

00:12:40: We have to use this bridging technology

00:12:42: until it is possible for us to use alternative drives.

00:12:45: But when the time comes, i.e., the industry or the trends,

00:12:49: they are more likely to say,

00:12:50: okay, this may have a bit of initial difficulties and so on,

00:12:53: but there will be a relatively rapid peak maybe in 2028 or so.

00:12:57: There will be the ramp up and then we want to be there too.

00:13:01: And how do you keep the balance?

00:13:02: That's always an investment to position yourself more sustainably.

00:13:06: That is ecological issues versus economic issues.

00:13:09: Is that an area of tension for you or how did you solve it?

00:13:11: No, it's definitely an area of tension.

00:13:14: Well, it was already said there at the beginning,

00:13:15: the industry has a special reputation,

00:13:18: but also in terms of margins,

00:13:20: it is really a very, very difficult industry.

00:13:22: Now, you can think that our customers are chemicals,

00:13:24: they earn well, they make good money and also pay very well.

00:13:27: Yes, but it is also difficult for the market in the chemical industry at the moment.

00:13:31: The high energy costs and such, we notice that directly.

00:13:34: This means that all investments must be really well, well considered,

00:13:38: and in the best case, in cooperation with the customers,

00:13:40: because we also have the problem

00:13:42: that we can't just convert our fleet to electric now, for example.

00:13:45: There are still legal hurdles.

00:13:46: Not all products may be transported by electric vehicle,

00:13:49: and we have just many of the hazardous substances.

00:13:52: In short, why? Why aren't they allowed to?

00:13:54: Because the drive of the truck doesn't really matter.

00:13:57: Yes, there are rules, laws that prevent this for the time being,

00:14:00: and that still have to be released,

00:14:02: or whether manufacturers have to make appropriate preparations

00:14:05: or design the truck in such a way that it is sure

00:14:08: that there is no short circuit.

00:14:09: Fire explosion issues.

00:14:10: Exactly.

00:14:11: Yes, Sonja, you just mentioned the topic of the chemical industry,

00:14:14: which are your main customers.

00:14:16: The chemical industry is relatively active

00:14:18: on its ecological and carbon management issues.

00:14:20: I would be interested to know,

00:14:22: you are doing this partly on your own initiative,

00:14:25: partly because you have regulatory pressure.

00:14:27: And I always say, well, the biggest driver

00:14:30: is, of course, also the business partners.

00:14:32: And do you also feel that your partners,

00:14:34: especially from chemistry,

00:14:35: also convey goals to you that you have to fulfill,

00:14:38: or information that you have to provide,

00:14:40: because you are ultimately part of the chain?

00:14:42: Scope 3, perhaps again, very briefly for our listeners.

00:14:45: Scope 3 is ultimately the calculation

00:14:47: of greenhouse gas emissions in the supply chain,

00:14:50: i.e. in the upstream chain, upstream and downstream,

00:14:53: and everything that happens behind the factory gate.

00:14:55: And you are also one of them

00:14:57: when it comes to procuring raw materials, et cetera.

00:15:00: After all, you are part of the upstream chain

00:15:02: when it comes to supplying the raw materials.

00:15:04: I would be interested to know,

00:15:06: do you have these guidelines?

00:15:07: And if so, what are the focus topics?

00:15:09: And the second thing,

00:15:10: do you also actively engage in dialogue?

00:15:13: So you also have collaborative projects

00:15:14: that you initiate together?

00:15:16: Yes, very exciting question in any case.

00:15:18: So the customer is actually one of our biggest drivers,

00:15:20: of course.

00:15:21: Apart from the fact that we want

00:15:23: to do this out of self-motivation,

00:15:24: the customer is of course the one

00:15:26: who formulates his requirements for us.

00:15:28: It may be that we have to answer this within a tender

00:15:31: that there are large questionnaires

00:15:32: on our sustainability programs.

00:15:34: But also in the conversations,

00:15:36: in the annual reviews,

00:15:37: in the regular discussions,

00:15:38: sustainability has been added

00:15:40: more and more often in recent years.

00:15:42: It is always an integral part of the discussions.

00:15:44: And in the end, there are even roundtables

00:15:46: from some customers where you are invited,

00:15:48: where you discuss together,

00:15:49: where you also discuss with the competition

00:15:51: and think about how we can do it,

00:15:53: because only together can we create this topic

00:15:55: and also financially cope.

00:15:57: But specifications are already there,

00:15:58: be it a certain number of points

00:16:00: in an ECOVata certification or there are already

00:16:03: very concrete requirements, yes?

00:16:05: Totally exciting,

00:16:06: because it's also on the subject of root optimization.

00:16:09: So you also have,

00:16:11: I don't know how it is in the chemical sector,

00:16:13: not like that.

00:16:13: You probably have certain carriers

00:16:15: where the goods are transported on them,

00:16:17: but normally you also have the pallets in logistics.

00:16:20: Then they are empty,

00:16:21: then they lie there,

00:16:22: then they have to be picked up,

00:16:23: or goods can somehow still be collected on the way.

00:16:26: If they are not special goods,

00:16:28: such as glass or chemicals,

00:16:29: there is a lot of potential.

00:16:31: I was also involved in a project

00:16:32: where we looked at

00:16:33: how we could combine different goods

00:16:36: in the retail environment, i.e. that the routes were optimized in such a way that the goods

00:16:41: were transported from A to B on the route and then on the way back, lighter goods may be added

00:16:46: because you have different criteria that you can meet for a truck, which is the weight and the load

00:16:52: volume. And if you have particularly heavy products or goods, then the truck is sometimes

00:16:55: still half empty. And then you can see if there are perhaps even lighter goods that you can pack

00:17:00: with you to optimize routes. But of course, that's only possible if you're in a certain area now

00:17:05: less in chemistry. Exactly. We don't have that. We have a product that we drive. And then it is

00:17:10: definitely the case that we drive back empty because we simply always drive the same product

00:17:14: within the container or inside the truck in order to save ourselves cleaning, for example, which also

00:17:20: reduces emissions that needs water. And so it's a trade-off of do we clean the truck and use it

00:17:25: for a new product? Or do we plan the routes so that it can drive the same product in the long

00:17:29: term and can therefore always be refilled? Totally exciting. I've never thought about the fact that

00:17:34: cleaning the vehicles, of course, can also pollute the environment again. I would like to go one

00:17:39: step further. We have now talked about environmental aspects about what you also see in the logistics

00:17:45: industry. So the journeys, how can you optimize that? How can you reduce emissions? I would very

00:17:50: much like to go to the second aspect of ESG, to the social issue, because, well, without drivers

00:17:56: in the logistics industry, even the most beautiful trucks or the most beautiful means of transport

00:18:00: are of no use, is one thing and the other. The industry is also known for not being squeamish

00:18:06: with each other, i.e. that there is a rough tone that the working hours can be very, very long,

00:18:11: keyword logbook. Or you hear again and again that times, maximum times are then overridden.

00:18:17: We always hear that drivers can no longer be found in Germany, that there is so-called cheap

00:18:21: competition from Eastern Europe or perhaps already from other countries. And that's a topic that

00:18:26: Talke has also turned to, that you say, well, we want to change something and also say, well,

00:18:30: we don't just want to create a standard now, which is legal. But for us, this topic belongs

00:18:35: socially. So where do we get skilled workers from? And what more can we do there? That belongs to

00:18:41: your sustainability strategy. Exactly. Yes. So that's really incredibly important for us,

00:18:46: because that's our heart. And without drivers, we can't survive it also to speak. So our recruiting

00:18:51: strategy is really very sophisticated and very multi-layered as far as the topic is concerned.

00:18:56: Simply to always find the right people too. On the other hand, we really have a very,

00:19:00: very low fluctuation rate among the drivers. Thank God that we have a very good bond with

00:19:05: our drivers. And yes, that we see at least even fewer problems at the moment. But we also know

00:19:11: that there is also a lot of, an obsolescence is taking place and it will be more and more difficult

00:19:15: in the future. I once brought a figure with me. So in 2023, there was a shortage of about 70,000

00:19:22: truck drivers in Germany. So that won't get any better. So we are, of course, very, very aware

00:19:26: of the problem in the medium term and that we are trying to counteract it. That's great.

00:19:31: I would have thought that you have a much higher fluctuation also that the competition might get

00:19:36: the drivers over or something. I don't know how that works. Yes, that's the case. So there is

00:19:40: certainly a bit of trench warfare and the drivers also talk among each other and also have certain

00:19:44: platforms and certain social media channels where they exchange ideas. So they are very,

00:19:49: very transparent talk very openly with each other about the companies and about the employer.

00:19:54: So yes, you have to offer a lot. But that's great that they exchange ideas because

00:19:59: I have to say a bit unfairly that also increases the pressure on you to create a certain working

00:20:04: environment that really invites you to stay and maybe even have to fetch young people.

00:20:09: You just mentioned that drivers are getting older and older and that younger people are

00:20:13: probably more likely to not enter this profession. Yes, that's really difficult. So there are only

00:20:17: 1300 trainees on average in Germany as far as drivers are concerned. And if you look at how

00:20:22: many drivers are missing, you can already see how the gap will simply keep widening.

00:20:26: Let's maybe get in front of the front. So drivers, where do you get drivers from?

00:20:30: Are you looking for ready-made drivers? Do you recruit them from abroad? What do you offer them?

00:20:35: Is it a training profession for you that you are looking for young drivers to bind them for a

00:20:39: long time? So if you are up front, as you just said, you also have certain actions in recruiting,

00:20:45: what do you do to be attractive to a driver? Yes, so it's really very complex.

00:20:49: Of course, we have, I'll say, German drivers who live here and/or drivers with a migration

00:20:53: background, but who at least have a residence here in Germany are already there, who are already

00:20:58: trained. That is indeed a bit of a prerequisite. So you should have a driver's license and you

00:21:02: would also have to have additional training for hazardous substances. So that's the prerequisite

00:21:07: for now. But what we are already trying to do is recruit drivers from abroad. You just mentioned

00:21:12: it. There is Poland, there is Romania, there is Bulgaria, are the countries that have also

00:21:17: been in the focus there in recent years. And there are special programs for which we provide

00:21:22: apartments. They get social integration here, so to speak, and the working model is a bit different.

00:21:27: They sometimes work for three weeks or sometimes six weeks at a time. So of course, with breaks and

00:21:30: so on, but then have a longer period of time off of one week or sometimes three or four weeks before

00:21:35: going back to their home country. This is a bit different from the German employees who drive five

00:21:39: days a week, so to speak. And yes, so we simply try to provide appropriate working models and time

00:21:45: models for all needs, as far as it is possible within our framework, because certainly the

00:21:49: topic of four days a week or something similar, that is difficult for us. You can do it. Sorry,

00:21:55: if I ask a quick question, you managed to implement these I'll say now working standards in Europe,

00:22:00: in Germany, but you are a globally active company. How do you do that in the Middle East or depending

00:22:04: on where you may be a little further away, where occupational safety employees, even structures

00:22:10: are perhaps different than they are now in Germany and Europe? Got it. So on the one hand,

00:22:15: you have to say that we are not active in transport everywhere in the countries where we are active.

00:22:20: This means that in the Middle East, for example, our focus is actually more on logistics, i.e.

00:22:25: warehousing, storage. And if we have transports there, then they are more like shuttle transports,

00:22:30: i.e. short transports from production to the port or back. That means these are not long

00:22:35: distances or anything. And similarly in the USA, we would now open up a little more. But of course,

00:22:40: we have to act accordingly according to applicable law and working hours.

00:22:43: Yes, I would like to reiterate what you said, that you also have many colleagues from Eastern

00:22:48: European countries in Germany. There are certainly voices in Germany that say, well, we don't really

00:22:52: want to work with so many non-German forces anymore. If that were the case, what would it mean for

00:22:57: Turkey? That would be catastrophic. Well, we can't really imagine that. Without the forces,

00:23:02: I don't think we would be able to do it at all. This is an important pillar, an important part

00:23:06: of our core business. And I don't know how that was supposed to work. I can't imagine that.

00:23:11: What are you doing then? So we were just at recruiting. What are you doing to keep these people

00:23:15: because you say you have a relatively low fluctuation? What does Talke do,

00:23:20: apart from the fact that you may be an attractive employer in the area per se?

00:23:24: But what are you actively doing to retain these employees?

00:23:27: So you can imagine drivers, they are on the road almost all day. They are not in the company,

00:23:31: either. They basically have little contact with the employees. But of course, we try to involve

00:23:35: them through appropriate means of communication, so to speak. It's perfectly clear that they have a

00:23:40: smartphone, that they have certain apps, that they can also use it in their, I'll say now,

00:23:44: in their free time or in the time when they have to wait, for example, at loading and unloading

00:23:48: points, that they can also use this for their own further education. For example, we have an insane

00:23:54: number of drivers who do language courses while they wait for the products to be unloaded and so

00:23:58: on. We provide all of this as well. We have our own department, which is called driver management.

00:24:03: It is specifically there to take care of the needs of the drivers. The driver can come there with

00:24:08: any request. There are talks, there are training programs, there are training courses, regular

00:24:12: ones. But there are also barbecue evenings and socializing so that the drivers felt understood,

00:24:17: so to speak, that there is a very close ear to the drivers in order to understand the problems.

00:24:22: We are also active in an association that has also taken up the issue a bit because the issue

00:24:27: is often that the drivers are treated less appreciatively by the customers or the customers

00:24:31: of our customers. In other words, there are few lounges. There may not be any sanitary facilities

00:24:36: at all. There are long, long waiting times. Of course, this also stresses the drivers and there

00:24:40: is now a kind of evaluation app similar to what you know, from hotels or trip advisor or something

00:24:46: similar, that the drivers can evaluate these end points, so to speak. And the association then

00:24:51: advocates talking to the customers and saying, "Hey, guys, take a look. There is only one star

00:24:56: or fewer stars here. What are you doing there?" Please also take care of our drivers because

00:25:00: they don't feel at home here. And does that help? I mean, evaluating is one thing that you then say,

00:25:05: "Hey, we may not even be allowed to go to the toilet at this or that unloading point." So these

00:25:09: are the topics that I then imagined, the basic needs. And that means that you then also turn to

00:25:14: the representative of this loading or unloading point and then try to talk to them in order to

00:25:20: bring about changes. The initiative came about because it is of course difficult for each logistics

00:25:24: company alone to talk to the customer. There is a relationship of dependency. Maybe you don't want

00:25:29: to put so much pressure or something if you don't want to lose the contract. And that's why the

00:25:33: industry initiative, the industry association has campaigned for it. And that means he basically

00:25:38: does it anonymously. The evaluations are collected there. I think the project has been up and running

00:25:43: for eight months now. And now after six months, seven months, we have received the first evaluation

00:25:48: and there are very, very good loading and unloading points. There are also a few black sheep and that's

00:25:52: where the association would now take action on behalf of all logistics companies, so to speak.

00:25:57: Yes, basically you have or are you involved in the regions in which you are active?

00:26:01: Do you perhaps have another concrete example of a local sustainability project as far as you are

00:26:07: concerned? So we have the Lead Foundation in Hürth, which we founded. And yes, we really care about

00:26:12: very local issues. Support also for refugees, reception or collection of clothing and the

00:26:16: like or of course, donations. And yes, and that's actually how we keep it in every region. So we

00:26:21: will then also have a location instead, which in turn will carry out actions on site. And yes,

00:26:26: we don't have an overarching organization where we do this, but really very locally always the

00:26:31: needs that are local. And of all the social commitment, is there a particular highlight for you?

00:26:36: That's a good question now. So maybe I would also bring up the USA again,

00:26:40: which I think is a really great project this year or last year, a great project that they

00:26:44: joined an organization in their area, in their town, and got Christmas gifts for families.

00:26:50: So there are families there who just couldn't afford it. And TalkieUSA has taken over the

00:26:54: sponsorship for families and has bought Christmas gifts for all family members, i.e. the employees,

00:26:59: personally, so to speak. I also like it very, very well. So we have now briefly talked about

00:27:04: the environment. We have touched on the topic of social. And of course, we also have to come to

00:27:08: the topic of regulation. Government issues has a lot changed for you in recent years due to

00:27:14: legislative changes. European law will also apply to you a lot in the different countries,

00:27:19: has a lot changed for you. Do you have to comply with many more regulations? And how do you face it?

00:27:24: Yes, definitely. So that's really a big, big topic for us that a lot of new things have been added

00:27:29: in a short time. The Supply Chain Due Diligence Act, which includes us. We also fall under ESG

00:27:34: reporting, which will then take effect for us from 2026, basically already this year. And

00:27:40: that ties up a very, very large number of capacities in our company. First of all, to create

00:27:44: an understanding in the first place, but also to understand where there are synergies with other

00:27:49: ISO audits, with other regulatory topics, such as the Energy Efficiency Act. We will now also be

00:27:54: certified according to EMAS. So to really understand what needs to be reported, how is this related?

00:27:59: What can we perhaps use for one or the other? But where are details requested differently? So that's

00:28:04: a huge issue for us. The discussions in politics about the Supply Chain Act, do we want to change

00:28:09: that again now? Will the requirements be adjusted? That doesn't exactly help if you start over and

00:28:14: start again and try to find your way around the jungle at all. It's just difficult.

00:28:17: What would your request to politics or to the legislature be if you had one wish? What would

00:28:22: be a concrete wish from your side? So I would have liked to see all the laws checked more closely

00:28:27: beforehand to see where there are synergies or where there are duplicate queries, simply so that

00:28:32: they could not have been published in the first place. And now I would like to see people actually

00:28:37: being much faster with checklists, with templates, with specifications, because I think every company

00:28:42: starts from scratch. Everyone tries to interpret it, tries to base their processes on it. Because

00:28:46: especially when I look at sustainability reporting, to find out with these hundreds of pages of

00:28:51: requirements what is essential for us now and what is not, I would have liked to see much more

00:28:56: guidance, much more ready-made templates and not in such a way that you are left alone.

00:29:01: Tobias, do I also have a wish? Always.

00:29:03: So I would really like to see the harmonization of laws. Of course, we have elements that can

00:29:08: be found indifferent. So especially thematically, you have climate in the CSRD, in the reporting

00:29:13: obligation you also have in other laws, of course. Nevertheless, there is always the feeling or worry

00:29:18: that you always have to start from scratch, which is not the case, in fact. Because when you position

00:29:23: yourself in the company, collect the activities, know that we have goals, we have measures,

00:29:28: then you already meet many of the criteria of the individual laws. Nevertheless, I believe

00:29:32: that there is an incredible amount of potential to really adapt the criteria, especially as far as

00:29:37: the content is concerned, so that companies can simply make better use of the figures they have

00:29:43: and do not have to prepare them differently again and again. That would be my wish.

00:29:47: Yes, that's true. I fully agree with that. In other words, that you can already use what you have

00:29:53: without changing it again or bringing it into a new form or bringing it into a new report,

00:29:57: that much more of what is already there is recognized. That's right.

00:30:01: Then I would like to conclude now, because unfortunately, we are already at the end of

00:30:05: our little conversation. Finally, I would like to draw the bow again and just ask you, you as a

00:30:10: sustainability expert and manager of a traditional logistics company, what was the biggest challenge

00:30:16: for you and how did you master it in the last two years? Yes, so the biggest challenge that's really

00:30:20: the complexity, I'd say, is probably the answer. So both in terms of our business model, logistics,

00:30:25: transport, our company itself is very complex and very multi-layered, plus then to bring in the

00:30:30: regulation and the issues that the whole topic of sustainability has, so to speak, to see,

00:30:35: what does that mean for us? What do we have to do? What do we focus on? That was the biggest

00:30:40: challenge or is actually still the biggest one, to make this complexity manageable and break it

00:30:45: down and to stay with it a bit for 80/20 hands-on. Dear Sonja, dear Bahar, thank you very much for

00:30:50: this deep insight into chemical logistics and the challenges around sustainability,

00:30:55: personnel development and ultimately innovation. What I take away today is that the logistics

00:31:00: industry is under enormous pressure to achieve the climate targets. The shortage of skilled

00:31:05: workers is, of course, an issue and the increasing requirements of regulation is also a real challenge.

00:31:11: But instead of seemingly being paralyzed by these challenges, Alfred Talk focuses on innovation,

00:31:16: collaboration and truly continuous improvement. Dear Sonja, I find it impressive how a large

00:31:22: logistics company like Talke openly states that there are no ready-made solutions but that they

00:31:27: have really set out on their way. And perhaps this episode will also encourage other decision makers

00:31:32: in the industry to go further and work on more sustainable solutions, even if the path to this

00:31:38: is not easy. And to you, dear listeners, you doers out there, as I experienced Sonja today,

00:31:44: she will be happy if you enter into an exchange with her, just get in touch with her, exchange

00:31:49: your experiences or maybe you will be here with us in the studio soon. Keyword, stay tuned.

00:31:57: To all of you out there, all listeners of BusinessShift, a big thank you for being there.

00:32:01: I hope we were able to inspire you. And if you want to learn more about sustainability

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00:32:41: And as always, you can find all the information under the show notes.

00:32:47: And don't forget, change in business starts with us, with all of us and with each individual.

00:32:55: So until next time, BusinessShift, the podcast for decision makers and executives who want to

00:33:03: deal with the topic of sustainability in a sustainable way. Stay curious. Bye-bye.