Episode 10 (EN): BusinessShift – Sustainability in Space @DLR

00:00:00: This English version of the podcast was created using AI-based voice synthesis from the original German recording.

00:00:06: BusinessShift.

00:00:12: The podcast for decision makers and executives who want to deal with the topic of sustainability in a sustainable way.

00:00:18: Welcome to the spaceship BusinessShift.

00:00:21: Today we are setting course for an extraordinary mission that will take us into previously unexplored spheres of sustainability.

00:00:29: On the bridge and at my side on the way to the galaxies of sustainability is as always our expert from TÜV Rheinland, Dr. Bahar Cat-Krause.

00:00:38: Dear Bahar, great to have you back.

00:00:39: Hello there.

00:00:40: We are now focusing on an industry known for its high-tech innovation but rarely associated with sustainability space.

00:00:47: The challenges are enormous.

00:00:49: For example, how can rockets become more resource efficient?

00:00:52: What strategies help to avoid space debris?

00:00:54: And what revolutionary technologies from weightlessness could make our life on Earth more sustainable?

00:00:59: Whether on the International Space Station, on lunar missions or on the way to Mars,

00:01:04: sustainable approaches play a much greater role in orbit than is apparent at first glance.

00:01:09: We will learn more about this from today's guest.

00:01:12: With decades of experience in space travel and as a leader of international missions,

00:01:18: he gives us exclusive insights into the future of manned and unmanned spaceflight all through the lens of sustainability.

00:01:26: Welcome, Volker Schmid.

00:01:28: Hello Volker.

00:01:29: Hello.

00:01:30: Volker, you were head of the ISS team at the German Aerospace Center DLR, an experienced space engineer,

00:01:37: a leading mission manager and you advised the chair of the DLR Executive Board on space issues.

00:01:43: But before we get started into space at hyperspeed, let's first ask a personal question.

00:01:47: Kirk or Spock?

00:01:50: Picard or Riker?

00:01:51: Who are you?

00:01:51: Oh, difficult question.

00:01:53: Well, according to my hairstyle, I should be Picard.

00:01:56: But I admit Captain Kirk inspired me to go into spaceflight as a child.

00:02:00: Spock is terrific.

00:02:01: I would have liked to have had him as a mentor.

00:02:04: I like the pointed ears.

00:02:05: Maybe I have them every now and then, but it's great.

00:02:07: And Riker is of course a daredevil.

00:02:09: The desired son-in-law I think I would have liked to be so temporarily, but mix of all four is not bad.

00:02:15: Okay, let's take that with us.

00:02:17: And you just said Kirk was a bit of your role model.

00:02:20: You wanted to go into space travel as a child.

00:02:22: I wanted to be a firefighter.

00:02:24: What motivates you as a child to decide against the fire brigade and for space travel?

00:02:29: And what did you do to really get there?

00:02:31: Yes, that's a long way.

00:02:32: And I was born in the Black Forest.

00:02:34: Someone once said you were a little closer to the stars, but well, the nights were dark.

00:02:38: You saw the universe.

00:02:39: And what I really like that's boundlessly inspiring, what's out there is still there.

00:02:44: Life past the moon.

00:02:46: That was also the time of the moon landing.

00:02:48: So that was a huge time.

00:02:49: And then science fiction, of course, Space Patrol Orion, Spaceship Enterprise,

00:02:55: research and unknown galaxies, aliens.

00:02:59: That was a colorful universe, exciting, great stories, read a lot.

00:03:03: So that was fabulous.

00:03:04: And yes, I wanted to.

00:03:05: Being part of the future, that was my drive.

00:03:09: And the secret of how I got there was a long way over many detours.

00:03:14: The secret is not to give up, to believe in never losing sight of the dream and to

00:03:20: seize the opportunities if they present themselves.

00:03:23: And you can also step aside and wait.

00:03:26: Chance number two is perhaps better than chance number one.

00:03:30: You have never been in space yourself.

00:03:32: Step aside and wait.

00:03:33: You would like to have that too.

00:03:35: That you would have liked to go on a mission yourself.

00:03:38: Yes, of course, but it didn't happen.

00:03:40: It's a harsh process to be selected as an astronaut.

00:03:42: I never faced the matter.

00:03:43: I didn't have to.

00:03:44: But of course, I was in space as a photo as an experimenter in space.

00:03:49: And yes, I helped supervise about 15 is experiments with thought up.

00:03:55: Yes, accompanied and thus on three and a half ISS missions before that ATV missions.

00:04:00: So more is hardly possible.

00:04:01: And yes, everything is fine.

00:04:03: Yes, you were a mission leader for Alexander Gerst and Matthias Maurer.

00:04:07: What exactly does such a mission leader do?

00:04:10: Yes, so that's multi-layered.

00:04:12: First of all, we don't sit at the console in the control room and say,

00:04:16: now you have to move this switch, move then this switch.

00:04:18: It's more like that.

00:04:19: I'll go into a bit of a swing for it.

00:04:21: That's more of a one sounds bold, but it's such a national coach activity.

00:04:25: Integrate team Germany.

00:04:27: We want to become world champions.

00:04:29: It's a bit like that.

00:04:30: It has the flavor, the touch like that.

00:04:32: Yes.

00:04:32: So there are several mission managers, of course, as I said,

00:04:36: it's NASA, ESA, and then for DLR.

00:04:39: So we have brought together the German content, integrated, integrated, prepared.

00:04:44: We have accompanied the partners.

00:04:46: There is a lot of documentation to be done.

00:04:48: Safety.

00:04:49: We might come to that later.

00:04:50: Flight safety experiments to move to flight.

00:04:52: Look, if they're not ripe yet, make them ripe.

00:04:55: Yes, make them qualified.

00:04:56: Then of course, building the storyline or helping to develop it.

00:05:00: That was especially the case with the first Gerst mission.

00:05:03: There was an eight year break between Thomas Reiter and

00:05:07: that's half a lifetime in space travel.

00:05:09: Social media came up again.

00:05:11: Yes, what kind of stories do we bring?

00:05:13: How do we inspire?

00:05:14: We, the youth, the next generation is very important.

00:05:18: And what stories do we tell?

00:05:19: It is extremely, extremely important that you try to show the taxpayer.

00:05:24: This is banal now, the taxpayer, what is being done with his money.

00:05:28: And what we are spending, yes, on earth and what we achieve in terms of inspiration,

00:05:33: in terms of innovation, what we bring down to earth in the future.

00:05:36: That's extremely, extremely important.

00:05:38: And that worked out, didn't it?

00:05:40: We all watched Alexander Gerst take the pictures above,

00:05:43: how he was on the road.

00:05:44: And that was very exciting for all of us.

00:05:46: So you mean social media makes that those who can't be there,

00:05:50: but still have the feeling that we are somehow there.

00:05:52: I think that's great.

00:05:53: We've all experienced that too and followed.

00:05:56: Absolutely.

00:05:57: That's exactly the point you're addressing, Baha.

00:05:59: That's campfire stories, participation,

00:06:02: getting to know what's happening there every day.

00:06:05: That's exciting and what do we get out of it?

00:06:07: And Alex Gerst always has, or always said, well, we can choose,

00:06:12: we're all on the spaceship earth.

00:06:13: And that's the way it is.

00:06:15: We fly around the sun at 30 kilometers per second.

00:06:18: And we can choose, are we as passengers on the planet

00:06:22: or on the spaceship earth or part of the crew?

00:06:25: And for us as a mission team, it was always clear.

00:06:27: We are, of course, part of the crew in the engine room.

00:06:30: Very clear.

00:06:32: And yes, that's great.

00:06:33: And social media has, of course, shown everyone, first of all,

00:06:37: how vulnerable our planet is, what impressions there are,

00:06:41: and of course, Top described by Alex and his crew.

00:06:44: Yes.

00:06:45: And also, fantastic pictures, but also, actually, with stories

00:06:50: about our beautiful planet.

00:06:52: And we have to preserve it.

00:06:53: I remember that there were also some stories

00:06:55: where I don't even remember where forests could be seen that died

00:06:58: or where floods were to be seen, if I remember correctly.

00:07:01: That's also part of the story to show the world is beautiful,

00:07:05: the pictures we see there.

00:07:06: But we also see that in some parts,

00:07:08: they may not be quite as good anymore as we would like it to be.

00:07:11: Exactly.

00:07:12: You see, for example, natural disasters,

00:07:14: the effects of deforestation in the Amazon, for example, yes,

00:07:17: that's how it eats into nature, so to speak.

00:07:20: And that's our lungs.

00:07:21: That's what we live on.

00:07:22: That influences the weather.

00:07:24: You see sandstorms from the Sahara that go out to sea

00:07:27: and to the seas for several thousand kilometers.

00:07:30: So this has and that you're around in 90 minutes,

00:07:32: so it's constantly changing.

00:07:34: You do 16 orbits around our planet a day,

00:07:37: and you get so many impressions when you have the time

00:07:41: to look out of the window, which you don't have.

00:07:43: And that shows how vulnerable our world is,

00:07:47: and we have to preserve it.

00:07:48: And that's what today's topic is about.

00:07:50: Yes, you absolutely have got it.

00:07:52: I just mentioned earlier, the topic of space travel

00:07:55: is very resource intensive.

00:07:57: So a lot of money is put into it.

00:07:58: You have to tell the story of why you put the money into it.

00:08:01: But not only money is consumed, but also a lot of resources.

00:08:05: So if we take a rocket launch, for example,

00:08:08: to get straight to the topic of sustainability,

00:08:11: there is somehow such a measurement with what can you compare

00:08:14: such a rocket launch when you look at the ecological footprint?

00:08:17: Yes, that's a bit ambivalent.

00:08:19: So I'll put it this way.

00:08:20: Space travel, even aviation has to build lightly,

00:08:24: light and stable.

00:08:25: So from the side, we are relatively economical with resources.

00:08:29: So we need little material, I'll say, to make or build a rocket.

00:08:34: And of course, the more flights you make, that also adds up.

00:08:38: But all the fuel has to go in so we can't get too heavy.

00:08:41: So 90% is fuel.

00:08:43: And also there, yes, of course, it has a footprint

00:08:45: for the atmosphere, but we burn stoichiometrically.

00:08:48: This means that we burn in chemical equilibrium.

00:08:51: So if we ideally have hydrogen and oxygen, as is the case with Ariane 6 now,

00:08:56: then the fuel is burned in such a way that there is exactly the right mixing ratio

00:09:01: that we have as few pollutants as possible in order to get maximum energy

00:09:05: or maximum outflow speed that is given.

00:09:07: But of course, we also have solid fuel engines that don't burn such good fuels.

00:09:12: Sometimes there's no other way.

00:09:13: We're not there yet that we flip a switch and say,

00:09:16: we're going to fly up there electrically or with warp drive,

00:09:19: like the Enterprise, we're still a long way from that.

00:09:22: So we will have to live with chemical propellants for the next few years.

00:09:26: That is, let's say the footprint that's Earth, Earth orbit, transportation.

00:09:30: And that's where we need to do better.

00:09:31: We now have green propellants, i.e., ultimately sustainable fuels,

00:09:38: which is coming up more and more in spaceflight, also in aviation.

00:09:42: That's a huge topic where the German Aerospace Center is conducting extensive research.

00:09:47: But of course, we are not here to say now that we are replacing everything else overnight.

00:09:52: That will still take some time, but they are working on it at full speed.

00:09:55: And also with some successes in aviation, these are the contrails

00:09:59: where the soot particles are brought to almost zero with sustainably produced fuel.

00:10:03: So no contrails and in space travel.

00:10:05: They are trying to do this with green propellant.

00:10:08: So with methane, liquid methane, for example, which is clearly better than the other chemicals,

00:10:13: but we are not yet 100%.

00:10:15: No question about it.

00:10:16: It will take some time, but we are working on it.

00:10:19: I find it very, very exciting because one thing is the transport to the ISS, for example.

00:10:24: And the other is when you're on the ISS, that's also a closed system,

00:10:28: which means that if we move a little further from the consumption of an energy donor,

00:10:33: maybe then on the ISS and everything has to be in balance somehow.

00:10:36: That is, what measures are introduced in such a way that resources such as water,

00:10:42: air and energy are really used efficiently and ultimately sustainably become?

00:10:47: Yes, this is a very broad topic, very complex, and it has also been a long development.

00:10:52: Now you can imagine it is known in the media that from time to time,

00:10:55: space capsules and supply spaceships fly to international space stations.

00:11:00: Europe built a supply spaceship at that time, the ATV, which flew five times and brought up food.

00:11:05: Astronaut goods, i.e. clothing, spare parts, experiments, but also air, drinking water,

00:11:11: service water and fuel on each flight. Fuel, for example, for the Russian service module

00:11:15: Svesda, which is able to lift or decelerate the ISS in orbit or even avoid debris.

00:11:20: This fuel was then pumped over the docking nozzle via the coupling device at the push of a button,

00:11:26: so to speak. Water, keyword water and air. A lot has changed in recent years.

00:11:31: Today, more than 90% of water, i.e. drinking water, is recycled and reprocessed.

00:11:36: Today, more than 90% of drinking water is recycled, treated again,

00:11:40: and the astronauts always say, "Yes, my coffee of today is your tea of tomorrow."

00:11:44: That's really the case. So the thought may take some getting used to, but it works,

00:11:48: and it's absolutely flawless. So there is no other way. And above all, if you now,

00:11:54: let's say, in the direction of the Moon and Mars mission, if you want to take the step further

00:11:59: out, then that is indispensable. A short calculation example, let's take a Mars mission with six people

00:12:05: and these Mars missions, they have about 1,000 days, such classic mission scenarios.

00:12:09: Then, when we are six people, we have three liters of drinking water,

00:12:14: three liters of service water a day, approximately, which is not too much calculated.

00:12:17: Shower is only available with damp cloths. Then we have 1,000 days, six people, we have 36 tons

00:12:22: just for water. With reserve, we make 40 tons. So we haven't eaten anything yet. We haven't put

00:12:28: anything on yet. We don't have an experiment yet. We have nothing else, no collateral. So in the end,

00:12:33: that's 40 tons of water that are two five transport loads. That's quite a lot just for drinking water.

00:12:40: And that means that the task for such further missions is to further close the material cycles.

00:12:44: So that means I have to grow food best. I have to make sure that my waste, let's take the toilet

00:12:50: and the faces are indeed resources. These are nutrients that I have to recycle, reuse, prepare

00:12:57: in such a way that I can use them and that they can be used without harm to life and limb and to

00:13:01: systems. We're still a long way from that. So the technology has to be made more robust to

00:13:06: size classes more like today. Of course, this will also help us for the earth at some point.

00:13:11: Yes, if we don't throw away more things, but we have them so robust that they are,

00:13:15: let's say, indestructible for 30 years. But how great so optimized for certain reasons,

00:13:21: namely resource reasons, space reasons, finite reasons, mission moon, mission Mars. Why is there

00:13:26: actually no mission earth or mission mankind? Because in principle, we have the same conditions.

00:13:31: Actually, a good template or a great example that we could actually use as a guide.

00:13:35: Absolutely. So that's an awesome, great trail. It's always about mission earth. We always have it

00:13:40: with us. We go into space for earth always no matter where we go, be it only by gaining new

00:13:45: knowledge, be it through technology, experiments on the space station. The goal is always to improve

00:13:50: life on earth to make it more sustainable, to conserve resources and to conserve resources.

00:13:55: So preserving our biosphere is the main reason why we are working with going to space.

00:14:00: And these findings, they are published, they are freely available or published.

00:14:04: Will they still be used then? So I'll just ask flatly now. Well, we have our economy and our

00:14:09: industry here and we want to become more sustainable. Do these findings also find their

00:14:14: place somewhere? So in business? Yes, of course. So that may not always be immediately obvious or

00:14:18: not immediately noticeable because these processes take time. I'll give you an example in a moment.

00:14:22: But this is already being done and the results are also published regularly. These are thick

00:14:27: catalogs accessible to everyone and are called, for example, at NASA, benefits for humankind.

00:14:33: So these are large catalogs where you can read about every experiment.

00:14:36: Why is it taking so long? Well, that has to be verified. Anyone can do an experiment.

00:14:41: It works today. Tomorrow it won't. That has to be well founded. And you mentioned or hinted at it,

00:14:46: the industry is very much involved. In material science, for example, there are hundreds of scientists,

00:14:51: entire communities that are investigating questions, for example, of new metal governments.

00:14:56: I can do things on the ISS that I can't explore on the ground. So because I have permanent weightlessness

00:15:01: up there. And for example, we have sustainability in Matthias Maurer's mission cosmic case,

00:15:05: we had a concrete experiment on board. Now you have to know that concrete, the global production

00:15:09: of cement emits more CO2 than all global air traffic. So about one seventh of the world's CO2

00:15:15: can be traced back to cement. The kills that burn cement run 24/7 and are operated with oil 365

00:15:21: days a year, which is not good.

00:15:22: So what happens to it? The goal was to get an optimal concrete. This means that

00:15:26: having the maximum load bearing capacity, making the structure as good as possible,

00:15:32: as homogeneous as possible, is not at all conceivable on Earth. But I don't have

00:15:37: convection on the space station. This means that nothing heavy does not settle but remains in

00:15:41: limbo and actually solidifies optimally. And then the samples, they were all brought back and

00:15:46: tested for contamination. And the structures are also examined. And of course this gives me the

00:15:50: opportunity if something like this can be implemented, i.e. if I can control the process

00:15:55: parameters for terrestrial production in such a way that I get a better structure,

00:16:00: better mixing ratios, I need less concrete in total. And secondly, I have an improved load

00:16:05: capacity. So that means I optimize from both sides. And that conserves resources. And if I then

00:16:11: also manage to minimize CO2 emissions, then I'll be good. But of course it's a long process and

00:16:15: I can't force anyone to implement it based on my findings. So that's easy. There has to be an

00:16:20: economic advantage for the industries. Then it will be made. Of course this also takes a certain

00:16:24: amount of time to implement. But I didn't know that for example. So that's really a great example.

00:16:29: And we also had five samples. A cement and creed is a mixture of sand water, cement and some

00:16:35: additives that improve flowability. And we had a so-called moon simulate with us. So this is

00:16:40: of volcanic origin. This corresponds to the properties, i.e. basalt dust. This corresponds to

00:16:47: the properties of the lunar regolith, the dust to the volcano. And they also produce five concrete

00:16:52: samples. Of course the goal is not to build up a logistics chain on the moon later on, earth moon,

00:16:57: very expensive, very resource consuming. But to use resources as far as possible in situ,

00:17:03: I went on site. We know there is water on the moon. Yes, and what can I do with the lunar regolith?

00:17:08: I could produce oxygen, I can split the water. First of all, use it as drinking water, but also

00:17:13: split it hydrogen, oxygen as rocket sediment and then fly further into the solar system with smaller

00:17:19: rockets. For example, Mars. Yes, that means that I no longer have to overcome the gravitational

00:17:25: judge of the earth, but it is easier on the moon. I can also get to my destination with smaller

00:17:29: rockets. And that's where it becomes more sustainable. The keyword rare earths, for example,

00:17:34: always makes it through the media. They are also on the moon. Mining is not yet economical,

00:17:39: but who knows what will happen in the future. If I can do that, it can be. The first solar cells

00:17:44: were also not economical with an efficiency of 1%. Today it is one of the pillars of sustainable

00:17:50: energy production. So you never know. Yes, you just mentioned it. On the one hand, working in situ,

00:17:56: so to speak, with moon dust when I'm on the moon. Another topic is asteroid mining. That you say,

00:18:01: okay, we're trying to tap into asteroids flying around and also extract energy from them or work

00:18:06: with the material. Exactly. That is especially in the USA. I don't want to say a certain hype,

00:18:11: but very popular. Also driven by astronaut veterans like Rusty Schweikart, for example. But of course,

00:18:16: it makes sense. Sure, the asteroids and there are many in the solar system. They are so to speak,

00:18:21: the rubble or the remnant of the formation of the solar system. And there are a lot of interesting

00:18:26: raw materials. So the problem is, of course, to get there, be docked there and stay and then

00:18:30: dismantle the things and prepare them in such a way that I can use them. And there is, of course,

00:18:35: the preliminary stage to that is, of course, enormous. We are not there yet. So the profitability

00:18:39: is not yet there, but that can come in the future. That means everything in space travel,

00:18:43: it is everything or the main cost driver is transport. Yes, from A to B, that is 70% of the

00:18:49: costs. And if we get it down or get it down, then maybe it will pay off at some point. So there is

00:18:54: Charles Lindbergh said, heading for the stars. That's a task for generations. We are working on it.

00:18:59: Yes, one is the way to get there. And you just talked about it, how to work on really conserving

00:19:04: resources and thinking in cycles. Nevertheless, there is space debris. One also speaks of space

00:19:09: debris. You only ever hear that here on earth. But can you perhaps also say something about what

00:19:14: the status is at the moment? Because you hear, well, our satellites are in danger from this junk,

00:19:20: because it would crash the satellites. Can you say a little bit about that?

00:19:24: Yes, of course. So that's a huge problem. Space debris is very, very dangerous and increasing.

00:19:29: So we have to solve the problem. Otherwise, we mess up or disfigure our own business.

00:19:33: And the accidents happen. So it hit satellites or through collisions, they were hit by fragments

00:19:37: of broken satellites, exploded up the stages, all that happens. I'll just give a few examples from

00:19:43: the past. So during an early space shuttle mission, I think that was STS-7, paint particles had almost

00:19:48: penetrated the windshield of the shuttle. You have about eight kilometers per second in low orbit,

00:19:52: around 200 to 400 kilometers in altitude, roughly space station level. And if a particle comes on

00:19:57: the opposite course, then you have 16 kilometers per second. That's incredible. And the kinetic

00:20:02: energy is one half in the V square. So the velocity enters the energy quadratically. That's very violent.

00:20:08: So a small particle, a grain of sand can cause great damage. And if that hits a computer, for

00:20:13: example, or a fuel line or something, then it was usually for a system. And even worse, of course,

00:20:18: when people are up there. So that's why you build a space station with a double world construction,

00:20:23: then have normal so-called debris shields on the outside for the endangered people areas.

00:20:29: And you say, okay, such a space station is damage tolerant or just damage tolerant for one centimeter

00:20:34: parts, which you don't want to try in a way. But that's then you can't plan that. Or can you,

00:20:39: I mean, a paint particle, you probably can't see that before that hits. And then it's there.

00:20:43: Everything that is bigger can perhaps still be guessed or seen somehow. So I'll say now on the

00:20:48: devices. But how can you protect yourself? Yes, so you're absolutely right. You can't see most of

00:20:55: it, the small particles. From 10.5 centimeters, it becomes difficult below that it becomes difficult.

00:21:00: So 10 centimeters is tracked by NORAD, for example, and by other radar stations. With radar, you can

00:21:06: solve this and the space station can avoid the larger chunks. Fortunately, nothing bad has happened

00:21:11: yet. But yes, you are not immune to it. And the little things you can't see them. Nevertheless,

00:21:16: you have to avoid them. It's best to avoid them. Anything that doesn't go up and creates garbage

00:21:20: is always good if you can avoid it. And a lot is happening there. This is a global task. The space

00:21:25: agencies are increasingly committing themselves to realize an avoidance strategy. I'll give you a

00:21:30: concrete example. The Ariane 6, for example, has an upper stage that shoots in opposition satellites.

00:21:36: And in the end, it is precisely this upper stage that is returned to the Earth's atmosphere with

00:21:40: a targeted maneuver and burns up. And thus avoids a huge problem because there are residual fuels

00:21:45: in it. There are also upper stages that passivate, they drain the fuel. Then it can't explode or

00:21:49: burst the tank. And it's bad when something like that disintegrates in orbit. So when an upper stage

00:21:54: disintegrates, it creates thousands of debris pieces. And it's really like gravity, the movie,

00:21:59: such an effect when it cascades. And then the whole orbit is messed up, so to speak, or disfigured

00:22:05: in the sense of being useless for space travel. You have to do that. Avoid it, definitely.

00:22:09: You just said that the organizations are committing more and more. That means it is not

00:22:13: yet the case that everyone is saying, okay, we are trying to implement this avoidance strategy,

00:22:18: but it is actually still the case that an incredible amount remains up. I understand now.

00:22:23: Well, the satellites, that's one point we have historically contaminated sites, I'll say.

00:22:28: Hundreds of old satellites, even larger parts that are dead, you can say, I can no longer control

00:22:33: them. So I have to wait until the remaining air drag of the upper atmosphere has slowed them down

00:22:38: so far that they burn up at some point. Of course, it would be best if you had a mission,

00:22:42: just grab two or three of these big things, pull them down, let them burn up. But that's not a

00:22:46: business case. Who pays for it? That should actually come from the UN. There were also

00:22:51: efforts, there are efforts, but who pays for it? That's a huge problem. And a few years ago,

00:22:55: you had the ability not to dock so safely with so-called uncooperative objects. Imagine that I

00:23:00: collide with it, then I increase the problem. So I have to grab the thing in one shot and bring it

00:23:05: down. And that must succeed. That must work right away at first try. Can you then also imagine,

00:23:11: similar to how we sometimes have garbage collections on earth, if we look at the oceans,

00:23:15: that at some point a drone would be sent up and they would probably not collect in nets,

00:23:19: but in another form, just as you described then, but then also the garbage in a very targeted

00:23:24: manner? Or do you think that won't happen because it's financial, because that's always the trade

00:23:29: offs that aren't there? Or the damage must be so great that it is worthwhile to send drones or

00:23:34: something up there, right? Yes, so you can, such a scenario. For example, a few years ago, we just

00:23:39: had the space station, which is huge. It's almost 500 tons. And why not bring them higher into orbit?

00:23:45: And use them as a resource at some point. It has already been assembled with a lot of energy

00:23:49: brought up. And maybe you could bring it up to 1000 kilometers and then use it at some point.

00:23:55: But that doesn't really simplify the problem because the station ages and the material ages,

00:24:00: due to this thermal interaction, i.e. the irradiation, day phase, night phase, these are

00:24:06: large temperature fluctuations, which could break up and then drastically increase the problem.

00:24:11: That's why you don't do it. But of course, for example, in geostationary orbit, i.e.

00:24:16: on the so-called 24-hour orbit at a distance of 36,000 kilometers from Earth, that is an important

00:24:21: resource. The slots for news and TV satellites and weather satellites are always freed up. That

00:24:27: means that the slots are very, very limited. And that's why you go into a so-called graveyard

00:24:31: orbit with the disused satellites. So you push the one with the last fuel residue out a few kilometers

00:24:37: and then switch it off. And then you can occupy the slot again with a new unit. That's where it's

00:24:42: done and there's a lot going on. That's less dangerous, of course, because it's very far out

00:24:46: and the things you might be able to salvage in the future. But there must also be a profitability

00:24:51: calculation. Is it worth it or not? So a drone, when we are ready at some point, maybe in 50 years,

00:24:57: these resources could be salvaged so flotsam moderately and sold. That is already possible.

00:25:02: Yes, because that's a bit of the fallacy, as I also say on the one hand.

00:25:06: The Earth is finite, space is infinite. Yes, but if we always add garbage, so at some point you

00:25:12: will have the effect just like you say that the slots will be occupied at some point. Yes,

00:25:17: because it will probably not be broadcast less, but rather even more in the future.

00:25:21: This is a valid point. Let's take Starlink, for example. That's thousands of satellites,

00:25:26: which in principle increase the problem. And let's see where that goes. And they stop. And here,

00:25:31: too, let's say a certain sensitivity is perhaps still desirable in the direction of waste avoidance.

00:25:35: If you could make a demand to politicians, what regulatory course is needed to bring

00:25:40: space travel more towards sustainability and climate neutrality in the next 20 years?

00:25:45: Yes, it's complex. So I say in the direction of waste avoidance or recovery of contaminated sites,

00:25:50: I would say that this is actually a classic UN task. Or perhaps for the EU, maybe you should

00:25:55: just proclaim and do a mission. And ESA or National Space Agency might commission something like that.

00:26:01: But of course, the budget must be available for this. If I do that, it is lacking elsewhere.

00:26:06: No question. But the problem might get smaller if I get rid of two, three, four of the big

00:26:10: dangerous elements. Then statistically speaking, you would have some peace again. But whether the

00:26:15: effect lasts long, you would have to do the math. I didn't do that myself either. Otherwise, a lot

00:26:19: is done for sustainability. And space travel does not devour so much money now. So compared to many

00:26:25: other areas, we are actually very inexpensive. And there is a lot for the money, even if you may not

00:26:29: see it so directly. We touched on it very briefly, the research on the space station benefits on

00:26:34: earth. A lot of industries are involved. The largest item is people in health. The goal is to

00:26:39: relieve the burden on health systems through new procedures, new therapies, new drugs. More and more

00:26:44: commercial companies are also coming in that are really specifically researching pharmaceuticals or

00:26:49: other things. So a lot can be expected. And the next generation of stations in low earth orbit

00:26:53: will increase the production of niche materials even more. And that's the next step. So we have

00:26:58: to start producing things up there that we can't produce in the same quality. Then there is also

00:27:02: a leap in technology or application where it continues. And that's where we can serve resources

00:27:07: again. That's what we want to do. Folker, tell me, where can we find out about such research results?

00:27:12: For example, if I am now a manufacturing company and I'm totally interested in innovative materials

00:27:17: or introduce new production processes, where can I inform me from you? Classically on the websites

00:27:23: or inquiries to the press offices. There you are usually referred to the experts. Great, I will

00:27:27: definitely try that out soon. Unfortunately, we have already reached the end of our short podcast.

00:27:34: But before we move on to the very end, a question for you, Volker. I think you've illustrated that

00:27:38: wonderfully now, not just space debris. Let's also move forward with what space research does.

00:27:44: In other words, how to deal with resources in space. Our listeners are entrepreneurially-minded

00:27:49: people. If you had a tip for yourself, from your entire experience with space, with orbit,

00:27:54: how you work, what would be the one sustainability tip you would give to our listeners?

00:28:00: Everyone can do something for sustainability. It starts at the beginning of the day.

00:28:04: How much water do I need? For example, do I use irrigation water for the garden, rain water for

00:28:10: the garden? It goes so far. Do I offer a home for insects in my garden, for wildflowers for

00:28:14: sustainability? Do I offer niches for nature? Do I clear stone deserts and make blooming landscapes?

00:28:20: Do I use the car or do I walk or bike? So everyone can do something every day, every day.

00:28:25: How do I avoid plastic? You can't avoid it completely. It's a good raw material. But how

00:28:30: do I avoid waste every day? What is my life cycle assessment? That's in my own hands. I can do

00:28:35: something about it. And that's actually my tip. Always remember we are on a spaceship with finite

00:28:39: resources. And that, I believe, is the most important measure of all things. Dear Volker,

00:28:44: dear Bahar, thank you very much for this intergalactic episode with our spaceship Earth

00:28:49: and a heartfelt thank you to you out there in the endless forests for listening.

00:28:54: My name is Tobias Kirchhoff. Today we have once again learned first hand that space travel has

00:29:01: actually long been an integral part of our technological infrastructure, that we really

00:29:06: benefit from it and that it is not just the Teflon pan that comes from space. And if we don't make

00:29:12: our environment sustainable, we risk wasting valuable resources in space. And so the question

00:29:17: is not do we need sustainability in space, but how can we use the findings and apply them on

00:29:22: our spaceship Earth so that we can move in space at a lot of speed for as long as possible?

00:29:27: And if you, dear listeners, want to learn more about sustainability in space travel

00:29:37: and other industries, just stay on board our spaceship.

00:29:40: Subscribe to our podcast and we will provide you with the most exciting insights and innovations

00:29:47: about sustainable technologies, resource management and future strategies directly on your communication

00:29:54: frequency. You can receive us wherever podcasts are available, whether you're working from home,

00:30:01: traveling in a spaceship, testing your own weightlessness in the bathroom, counting down

00:30:06: while ironing and circumnavigating the Earth outside with your child, dog and crew.

00:30:14: So as always, you can find all the information in our show notes.

00:30:17: And remember whether Earth, Moon or Mars, the change is in us, in all of us and in each of us.

00:30:25: Live long and prosper. Until next time, your BusinessShift. The podcast for decision makers

00:30:35: and executives who want to deal with the topic of sustainability in a sustainable way.

00:30:41: Stay curious. Bye bye.

00:30:43: