Episode 9 (EN): BusinessShift – Sustainability @Tetra Pak

00:00:00: This English version of the podcast was created using AI-based voice synthesis from the original German recording.

00:00:06: BusinessShift.

00:00:11: BusinessShift.

00:00:12: The podcast for decision makers and executives who want to deal with the topic of sustainability in a sustainable way.

00:00:18: I'm Tobias Kirchhoff, your host from TÜV Rheinland.

00:00:22: Today we are talking about a topic that affects us all.

00:00:25: Packaging. Whether milk, juices or soups we encounter beverage cartons everywhere, but how sustainable are they?

00:00:32: Tetra Pak is a world leader in this field and is often caught between product protection, the circular economy, and the recyclability of its own products.

00:00:41: How can packaging become more sustainable without jeopardizing the protection of food?

00:00:45: How can recycling rates be improved?

00:00:48: And how is the industry reacting to the growing pressure from environmental associations and regulatory authorities?

00:00:54: I am very pleased to welcome Caroline Babendererde, Head of Sustainability for Tetra Pak's DACH region today.

00:01:01: Caroline, welcome.

00:01:02: Thank you very much, Tobias.

00:01:04: It's great to have you here and that we get first hand information from you.

00:01:08: And I talk about we all the time because of course I'm not alone here,

00:01:12: but I'm here in the studio together with our sustainability expert from TÜV Rheinland,

00:01:16: People & Business Assurance Dr. Bahar Cat-Krause.

00:01:19: Welcome Bahar.

00:01:20: Hello Tobias and hello Caroline.

00:01:23: It's nice to have you here.

00:01:24: Yes, I'm happy to.

00:01:26: Thank you for the invitation.

00:01:27: Caroline, Tetra Pak packaging.

00:01:29: What is special about Tetra Pak packaging?

00:01:32: The special thing about beverage cartons is first and foremost that they are very lightweight.

00:01:37: The main ingredient is a cardboard box, as the name suggests.

00:01:40: But to make the products durable at all or to ensure that they remain in this packaging for a long time, we naturally need other components.

00:01:48: On the one hand, we have a thin plastic film that is applied to the cardboard so that the cardboard does not come into contact with moisture from the outside and thus dissolve.

00:01:57: Then we have another plastic layer on the inside on which the barrier is then applied,

00:02:01: which protects the product from light and oxygen.

00:02:03: As I said, in our case, it is an aluminum barrier, but we are also working on alternatives.

00:02:07: We can talk about it later.

00:02:09: Then there are two other layers of plastics so that the actual bottled product, i.e. the milk, the juice,

00:02:14: so that they don't come into contact with the aluminum foil at all.

00:02:17: This is for so-called aseptic packaging, i.e. durable products that can be kept for up to one year without refrigeration.

00:02:24: On the other hand, we also have the so-called fresh milk packaging or the packaging that is distributed in the cold chain.

00:02:30: There we really have a less complex structure.

00:02:32: We have the carton.

00:02:34: We have the outer plastic layer, just like with the aseptic carton.

00:02:37: We have the plastic layer on the inside, and then this cardboard is already finished, so to speak.

00:02:42: Approximately 80% of a one-liter carton is cardboard for non-durable, i.e. refrigerated products,

00:02:48: and between 70 and 75% cardboard for aseptic products.

00:02:51: Plus then the plastic layer, 20% for the fresh products, a little less for the aseptic ones.

00:02:57: For this, 4-5% aluminum foil is added.

00:02:59: This is the structure, and then accordingly, either with a plastic closure or without,

00:03:04: that's actually the whole topic.

00:03:06: Totally exciting.

00:03:07: I didn't even know that it is so complex.

00:03:10: So you have high tech in this packaging, and so we are already in the middle of the topic.

00:03:14: So when we think about sustainability or the environment,

00:03:17: it's always about how we can use resources in a way that conserves resources and how we can cause less waste.

00:03:24: And of course, the packaging that is around a product is no longer needed,

00:03:28: and then becomes garbage afterwards.

00:03:31: You've been with Tetra Pak for 20 years.

00:03:33: How has this topic developed for you?

00:03:35: For about 30 or even more than 30 years, i.e. almost at the same time as the introduction of the green dot,

00:03:41: in anticipation of the introduction of the packaging ordinance,

00:03:44: which was the first packaging ordinance at the time,

00:03:47: it has already been specified that all packaging must be collected and then also sent for material recycling.

00:03:53: And with that, the whole thing actually took its course.

00:03:55: We had no experience at all.

00:03:56: How can such a beverage carton actually be recycled now?

00:03:59: And my colleagues at the time who were still predecessors really went to paper factories

00:04:04: because they said that the largest component was actually cardboard.

00:04:06: So it's actually logical we go to a paper factory and test with them and see how it works.

00:04:10: Accordingly, the whole thing developed from there.

00:04:13: Nowadays, it is actually completely normal.

00:04:15: And I hope every consumer naturally throws his or her beverage carton into the yellow bag or yellow bin after use,

00:04:21: because this is the only way it can be recycled.

00:04:23: And the beverage cartons are sorted out as a separate fraction.

00:04:26: So not as plastic packaging in any form because there is a plastic coating on the outside

00:04:31: or as any other form of cardboard packaging, but it is a separate fraction.

00:04:34: And these sorted and bailed cartons actually go to specialized paper mills.

00:04:38: And there they are dissolved.

00:04:39: And I always think that's so great.

00:04:41: That's such a nice example.

00:04:43: You can actually try it out at home in the washing machine.

00:04:46: You chop the cardboard a little bit, throw it into your washing machine, add a little water.

00:04:50: The washing machine turns and that's exactly the principle in the big paper mills.

00:04:54: You have a large pulping drum.

00:04:57: The beverage carton comes in.

00:04:58: The fiber swells up through the water and through the rotation.

00:05:01: And then goes through holes in the drum wall.

00:05:04: It really goes out of this drum and onto the paper machine.

00:05:06: And this is how new paper products are already being created.

00:05:10: But for a long time, and you also asked about the development to buy us,

00:05:14: how has it changed over the last few years or decades?

00:05:16: For a long time, the remaining components, i.e. the plastic, the aluminum foil,

00:05:20: the lids were then brought to the cement industry,

00:05:23: which was also recognized and absolutely also from an ecological point of view,

00:05:27: a good way.

00:05:28: But of course, the products were then no longer available for other products, so to speak.

00:05:32: So the only thing that went into the cement was the aluminum foil as a substitute for bauxite.

00:05:36: Today, we are actually ready and we have built the first plant here in Germany.

00:05:40: In 2015, the first product idea or the first idea in general was how to build something like this,

00:05:46: that we also process these components, i.e. polyethylene foil, aluminum foil and the caps,

00:05:52: so that we can recycle them in such a way that they can be returned to the respective industries.

00:05:57: And that was with the company Palorec in Cologne-Hürth in Germany.

00:06:00: That was really the first entry into the material processing also of these non-fiber components.

00:06:05: And this journey is now picking up incredibly high speed because we,

00:06:08: and we will certainly talk about this later, because we are of course also anticipating

00:06:12: the regulatory requirements that are coming there, both from the EU and then in Germany.

00:06:17: And we must ensure that all components are then recovered to the highest possible degree for new products.

00:06:22: When you talk about packaging, you also know as a consumer that it has to go into the yellow

00:06:26: bin in the best case, but there is always the myth hovering over everything that's possible.

00:06:31: Everything will be burned anyway. And that's why I found it super exciting.

00:06:35: Thank you very much for the explanations to simply show that something is really happening

00:06:39: and a lot is developing in the area of disposal. So just breaking down such a multi-layer packaging,

00:06:44: as it's called, into its individual components is a huge process.

00:06:47: And using these materials as a resource again is also required by regulation on the one hand,

00:06:52: but on the other hand, you as a company also have the pressure to use recycled material again,

00:06:57: because we also have the requirement to use recycled materials under the packaging ordinance.

00:07:02: And I'd be interested to know how that works. You are in the food sector for the most part,

00:07:06: or 100%. There you also have different hygiene standards, but do you need all these layers?

00:07:10: It's all plastic. Is it all necessary? Now we have already learned that it has to be sterile,

00:07:15: it has to be durable. But we also have the issue of hygiene, which means that recycled materials

00:07:20: often carry the risk that you may not be able to fully understand what it actually was before.

00:07:24: Does it even have a food standard? How do you deal with the topic? Do you have problems getting

00:07:29: materials and do you perhaps already have solutions? I would be totally interested in that.

00:07:33: I think that's exactly the important point, because often you think, well, it shouldn't be a problem

00:07:38: at all to restore exactly the same thing from the original material. And there you address a very

00:07:43: sensitive and also important point. We are in a contact sensitive area. And of course, no one

00:07:47: wants any impurity to migrate into the valuable food. So for us, of course, the top priority for

00:07:52: primary packaging is that the food is protected. At the end of the day, we do the environment a

00:07:57: disservice if the packaging doesn't work as it should. And we generate a lot more food waste

00:08:01: at the end of the day, for example. In addition, there is also the health protection of consumers,

00:08:05: of course. So that's the first priority. And that's exactly where we come to an important dimension,

00:08:10: of course, because you don't just get prescribed about the regulation, but also because many people

00:08:14: say that it has to go straight back into the packaging. But that's exactly where the devil

00:08:18: is in the details. And you mentioned exactly that, that we have to make sure that, for example,

00:08:22: we have the greatest possible purity of our packaging alone through collection. But it has

00:08:27: not yet been approved at all that polyethylene from a mechanical recycling process can be

00:08:32: reused in contact sensitive products. So that's not allowed by the European authority either.

00:08:36: We know this from PET, but PET has completely different properties than PE. PE, i.e., in

00:08:42: polyethylene, is like a sponge and also likes to absorb foreign substances. With PET, it's a

00:08:46: different matter. That's why we've known this bottle to bottle recycling from the PET bottle

00:08:50: industry for so long. It's currently the case with us. We actually already use recyclates,

00:08:54: but they come from a so-called chemical recycling process. So in the end, the plastic that comes

00:09:00: back from our packaging is cracked open, I'll say brutally, and is then more or less identical to

00:09:05: an original plastic so that it doesn't pose any problems at all when it comes into contact with

00:09:10: the food. But now we have a topic here. The chemical recycling processes have not yet received

00:09:14: recognition, so also legal recognition. This means that the focus is now on the further

00:09:18: development of mechanical recycling processes. And we also have to develop in parallel in such a

00:09:25: way that we naturally see also in our discussions with politicians that the chemical recycling

00:09:32: processes are recognized, but not that they are then only the only processes, which is also the

00:09:37: great concern of the politicians, but that we of course, of at the same time our recyclers,

00:09:42: who process the polyethylene and the aluminum, that they will also be able to produce food

00:09:47: grade qualities again in the future. It's a long journey and unfortunately it doesn't happen overnight.

00:09:52: But in addition, we at Tetra Pak also have our own experts in-house, so they are really

00:09:57: absolutely recycling experts and also plastics experts. Together with our development department,

00:10:02: we are now pushing this journey forward swiftly. You already said that you talk to politicians.

00:10:07: You also have to talk to the recyclers. You talk to innovative companies that may have new methods.

00:10:13: How do you make sure that this works? Because I imagine that would be very, very difficult.

00:10:17: So now on the one hand, you have politics that dictates things, but on the other hand,

00:10:22: you have very practical issues that may not be implemented so quickly,

00:10:27: but at the same time, you have to meet regulatory requirements. How do you deal with that?

00:10:32: So first of all, it's important that we have been looking into the future for a relatively long

00:10:37: time and already understand where regulation is heading. One thing, of course, is our own ambitions.

00:10:42: And it's also about the fact that a long time ago, we thought about what of our materials we could use

00:10:46: again as recyclate at some point in the future. Is it the fiber? Is it the aluminum foil? Is it

00:10:52: really the plastic? So these discussions also take place internally. But one must really understand

00:10:57: and it is also embedded in our function that we anticipate very far ahead. And that has nothing

00:11:03: to do with looking into a crystal ball, but really understanding and having felt where the market is

00:11:08: developing, where certain players are developing, and of course, accordingly, where the regulation

00:11:12: is developing. And now we are exactly where you said the European packaging regulation,

00:11:16: the so-called PBBR, has now been adopted. It will be published soon and it will actually be sharp

00:11:22: from 2030, where 10% recycled use is specified for us alone for our packaging. And of course,

00:11:28: that's not long away. You think that's still five years? Five years is actually nothing for

00:11:33: developments, especially in the food sector. And of course, our employees in the research and

00:11:38: development area in our large laboratories are now, of course, really working or are being trained

00:11:44: to ensure that these things really move forward quickly in cooperation with the European authorities,

00:11:49: with the regulatory authorities. We have to deliver. As I said, it's absolutely not an issue

00:11:55: about chemical recycling. We can, but this also requires the recognition that these processes

00:11:59: are then also possible and that this can be used as recycled is recognized.

00:12:03: You just mentioned it the next five years. I would like to go back to the surface a bit from the

00:12:09: depths. I think our listeners are also interested. You as head of sustainability, you are responsible

00:12:14: for the probably for the strategy keyword circular economy, etc. What are your overarching goals in

00:12:20: the area of sustainability for the next five years? So for us, the focus is indeed currently,

00:12:26: or for several years now, especially in our area on the circular economy, because we have really seen

00:12:32: that this is now one of the most important points that also ensures our survival to some extent,

00:12:37: if you will. That concerns, yes, and you already said it, Bahar. It doesn't just concern us. It

00:12:42: doesn't just concern beverage cartons, but ultimately really all packaging that you ever

00:12:46: find on the market in the European market. And that's why the big focus is on it right now.

00:12:51: And I'm less strategic than really very operational. So I really do a lot with our recyclers,

00:12:55: accompany their production, their development. I do end market development, which means where can

00:13:00: the materials, since they cannot yet be reused in packaging, where can they be used? So we are now

00:13:05: talking about reusable plastic pallets, for example, will also be a big topic in the PPBR.

00:13:10: In other words, the reusability of all kinds of things that concern logistics,

00:13:13: crates, but we also talk about master badges. It is really day in and day out this work,

00:13:18: which market would still be potentially viable in the application? So that's in our area.

00:13:23: At the sustainability level, of course, we have different areas globally, of course,

00:13:27: we have different pillars. One pillar is climate and nature, where of course, everything is going

00:13:33: or at full speed towards our net zero targets for 2030 in our own production. And then across our

00:13:39: entire value chain by 2050. We have a separate social sustainability department in preparation

00:13:45: for all the reporting standards of the EU, IEE, keyword CSRD, CSRDDD. Of course, these are huge

00:13:52: topics, above all to understand social sustainability across the value chain, and also to ensure that

00:13:57: it is made transparent. We are now talking a lot about transparency for the future. We also clearly

00:14:04: have an area called corporate affairs, IEE, where the whole topic is really talks with politicians,

00:14:09: commonly called lobby work, we call it advocacy, where it's really about talking, discussing facts.

00:14:15: Often, of course, the politicians are not so involved in the issues, but then decide on certain

00:14:19: topics. In this respect, it is also important to talk to them. And then we have another area that

00:14:24: is also a little more focused on internal development, IEE, sustainability excellence, IEE,

00:14:29: the further development of the knowledge of all our employees in our company worldwide.

00:14:34: We have over 23,000 employees, and it's really about improving knowledge, also for the front lines,

00:14:40: IEE, the salespeople, the marketing people, so that they all really have a good knowledge of

00:14:44: sustainability. The whole thing is just our way forward in the field of sustainability. And our

00:14:49: focus now, especially in sustainability operations, is currently the circular economy.

00:14:54: What are the current steps that you are currently taking, or what is coming up soon?

00:14:59: So you just described that you want to have net zero emissions in 2030 and one step further in 2050.

00:15:05: What are the current projects you are working on?

00:15:07: So less so for me, actually, but we are actually looking globally across the entire value chain,

00:15:12: of course, to see where the largest emissions are generated and where they can be minimized.

00:15:16: We started publishing our first climate protection target back in 2005,

00:15:20: and that actually focused on our own production areas, and there was really hands on.

00:15:24: So where can we save electricity? Quite simply, where can we switch to green electricity?

00:15:29: Is green electricity available at all? And we implemented that relatively quickly in Germany.

00:15:33: In the meantime, we have really come a long way worldwide. I mean, we are already at over 80%

00:15:39: renewable energies worldwide. That's one point. Then what you do as a private person,

00:15:44: really look, where can I control the lighting depending on daylight? Where can I install photovoltaic

00:15:49: systems? So all those things, that's one area. And the other is really what is created through

00:15:54: our equipment. So we are not only a manufacturer of packaging material, but we are actually a

00:15:58: very large mechanical engineering company. So we also manufacture the equipment through which

00:16:02: the milk gets into the packaging in the first place, the filling lines. We manufacture equipment

00:16:07: for UHT heating, pasteurization, homogenization. We manufacture huge equipment for the production

00:16:12: of ice cream. So if you eat a Magnum ice cream, you can be sure it's produced on a Tetra Pak line.

00:16:17: I didn't know that at all. Yes, you hardly know that. But that's our plant engineering cheese. A lot

00:16:24: of mozzarella has been produced on Tetra Pak lines. And that of course is such a very big

00:16:29: important area. What is actually created by the customers, the bottlers, the packaging industries?

00:16:34: So be it dairies, fruit juice manufacturers, what kind of emissions are caused by our equipment

00:16:40: alone? And that's where the focus is. Because that's where we really see, in addition to raw

00:16:44: materials, that the largest emissions are actually generated in the production plants

00:16:49: due to very electricity and energy intensive plants. And of course, it is now important

00:16:54: to tackle this and really see how we can optimize it. That's where the biggest lever is.

00:16:58: Especially if they are your own investments. Let's talk once again about the top

00:17:03: of the circular economy. That's your topic. Circular economy? We talk about it more often

00:17:09: also in our podcast episodes, but also with many colleagues. And for me, it would be interesting

00:17:13: to hear again what you mean by circular economy. Or rather, I always like to call it circular economy

00:17:19: also in German, because in German, the word in Christlaufwirtschaft is very often only associated

00:17:23: with the topic of waste. I say this a bit critically, only with the topic of waste. But the circular

00:17:28: economy is actually much, much more. You have just given a little insight. You are very, very much on

00:17:34: the road to develop with a lot of interest groups. Maybe there is also the keyword designed for

00:17:39: recycling and things like that. What do you think the circular economy is? On the one hand, it actually

00:17:44: includes the raw materials used. And I think we all, everyone who is involved in product production

00:17:49: at all, has to come up with a product idea, whether it's packaging or a chair or a car. I think it's

00:17:54: important that we start from the end. So now we don't have to start from scratch. And of course,

00:17:58: you will never stop developing any fancy products and everything that is still chic. And there may

00:18:02: also be a bit of a conflict with marketing. There are certainly always different positions.

00:18:07: But I think it's important that we really think from the end and think about what if this product

00:18:12: is no longer functional, is no longer needed? What can we make of it? And from today's perspective,

00:18:16: which materials fit into a circular reuse? Also in which products can it potentially be reused?

00:18:21: And I think we need this understanding. We really need a good knowledge of materials,

00:18:26: a good understanding of materials about the products used. And can they perhaps be put

00:18:30: together differently? So as I said, with the beverage carton, you always imagine it to be

00:18:34: so complicated, but really try it out at home, either in the food processor or in the washing

00:18:38: machine. Because nothing is glued or nailed in any form, I'll say it stupidly, stapled. It's all

00:18:43: just laminated. That's why they separate from each other without any problems. And I think these are

00:18:48: exactly those things. So on the one hand, the materials used very important, then the way this

00:18:52: product is really composed. So can you really separate the individual components well from each

00:18:57: other? I think that's blatantly important. And always think about what life is like afterwards.

00:19:02: So of course, we want to go into high quality recycling. We want to go back into high quality

00:19:07: products. Although I just resist when people say, oh, that's downcycling. I think it's important

00:19:11: that despite everything, we find substances somewhere in production or in another function.

00:19:16: And if it is the 300th Park bench, then it is the 300th Park bench.

00:19:20: Before these plastics are perhaps contained somewhere or sent somewhere else. I think that's

00:19:25: important. We have to think differently and we just can't do it. And I had explained that earlier.

00:19:30: Unfortunately, we are not yet managing to make them become what they used to be,

00:19:34: especially with contact sensitive materials or products. So I think we have to rethink a bit

00:19:38: there. And then there is always the economic side. That's why it's called economy. So I think it is,

00:19:43: of course, also important that this is in an important and above all reasonable economic view.

00:19:47: It can't work any other way. So you can't suddenly expect only gold or platinum standards.

00:19:52: We simply have to assess and see the market conditions really well. And not everyone can

00:19:55: really afford only the high end products. But we really have to look at what is accessible to

00:20:00: everyone, what is actually presentable for everyone. And that's where we have to get there.

00:20:04: So I think we have to rethink everyone in product development in the product idea in a completely

00:20:08: new way. And you have already said design for recycling. I would even go one step further.

00:20:14: In other words, design for recyclability, i.e. that it is recyclable in the first place.

00:20:19: And the next thing is also design for recycled products, i.e. we actually design an original

00:20:24: product, but we are already thinking about the next product. I think that's actually quite

00:20:28: important and also pretty cool. We'll get back to the products in a moment, but we were now on the

00:20:33: products. We were at the production and you also addressed the topic earlier, social responsibility.

00:20:39: We want to touch on that again now. You have about 25,000 employees. And of course, you also have

00:20:44: suppliers for what you do. Keyword supply chain, how are you on the road? We are actually in

00:20:50: preparation also to the reporting obligations mentioned above. I'll put it this way. Thank God

00:20:56: we have a comparatively manageable one. So I don't want to downplay it now, but we have a comparatively

00:21:00: manageable supply chain compared to perhaps two large textile companies. So I think one or the

00:21:05: other has to deal with completely different issues again. But nevertheless, it is of course an

00:21:10: important topic because we are on the road worldwide. We are also represented with our packaging in

00:21:15: over 160 countries. Where do the raw materials come from? Where does the wood come from? How

00:21:21: is the wood grown in the first place? How is the tree felt? Under what conditions? That's why the

00:21:25: topic of FSC certification, which covers all three dimensions of sustainability, was very important

00:21:30: to us. We use the plastics, but we also use plastics that originally consist of sugarcane or

00:21:35: whose raw material is sugarcane, which we also use. So what happens on the sugarcane plantations?

00:21:40: How are people remunerated? What are the working conditions like? Also, what about seasonal workers

00:21:45: with the people who are not even a permanent member of our staff? And we have to understand

00:21:49: this across the entire value chain and make it really transparent. So there we are right now

00:21:54: actually in the whole lineup. What is needed? Where do we have to look? What have we already

00:21:59: established? This is a huge topic, an important topic. At the same time, however, I would also

00:22:04: like to criticize all these reporting obligations. So dealing with this topic is blatantly important

00:22:09: because in many industries we really have quite catastrophic social conditions which many people

00:22:13: may not even be aware of or you are not interested in. So I think it's important that this is depicted.

00:22:19: The other thing, however, is that we are now of course creating huge reporting monsters,

00:22:23: all of which then also have to be validated. And I really ask myself all the effort behind it

00:22:27: may still be possible for us to a certain extent. But for smaller companies, medium size ones,

00:22:32: I see this as much more difficult. And then I think does it really bring the effect you want to see?

00:22:36: So instead of spending so much time on reporting, I would rather wish to see that the people,

00:22:41: the companies are on their way, that they have understood the topic. Of course, we should also

00:22:45: report on it, but I believe that we need to streamline it much more overall, make it much

00:22:50: more practicable, not so complex, not so bloated. And that's why we keep criticizing the German

00:22:55: Supply Chain and due diligence act. What a wonderful word, isn't it? Well, I'll take that with me

00:23:00: as a wish for politicians to simplify things. But I would be interested again CSR or social

00:23:04: responsibility. One is reporting obligations. The other question for me is what specific projects

00:23:10: do you have where you say we take a certain responsibility for our employees and or the

00:23:15: supply chain to ensure that we maintain a level beyond reporting obligations? Absolutely. And

00:23:21: that's really essential to bias. So first of all, of course, you always have to map and understand

00:23:26: first. So what does it all involve? Who is part of it so that a beverage carton is ultimately on

00:23:31: the shelf in the trade? So what and who is responsible and necessary for this in the first

00:23:35: place via the, let's say now the upstream supply chain? And that's so far, I'll say understood

00:23:40: in principle, or you know that, but now it's really time to get down to the details. So now it

00:23:45: really means that we have to look at the forest together with our suppliers. So in concrete terms,

00:23:49: what happens there? How do they really organize it? And that it is no longer enough to just have a

00:23:54: certificate presented to put it bluntly, but that you really look on site. We have been doing this

00:23:59: for a long time also through transparency international that they have tried again and again

00:24:03: to bring more transparency into the issues. The other thing is that you also mentioned the employees.

00:24:08: So we have very clear guidelines worldwide when it comes to occupational safety, health, and of

00:24:13: course mental health. We have a lot of programs there. It's been established for a long time.

00:24:17: And we always make sure that it really works. We have to do the training sessions regularly.

00:24:22: So I think that's really important. And that's actually the focus of our commitment to people.

00:24:25: We now simply go to the Asian area or the African area where our packaging is also produced and

00:24:30: sold. So for our factories, we have the same standards everywhere. That's one point. But the

00:24:35: other is where can we continue to support the communities? For example, we do a lot in the

00:24:39: area of school milk, school milk programs ensuring that we supply over 60 million children with milk

00:24:43: or very nutritious food. This is more or less a program that has been established for decades

00:24:48: that we have set up. The other thing is how do we manage it? Because in very few countries,

00:24:52: you really have regulation when it comes to the collection and recycling of used packaging.

00:24:56: So how do we manage to get the people with us on site? They organize in such a way that beverage

00:25:01: cartons are also collected in Brazil or in Malaysia, for example. In other words, that we also help

00:25:07: organize it on site, but always taking into account a standard as far as the social aspects are

00:25:12: concerned. In other words, that we organize them cooperatively. There was also a big report on

00:25:16: National Geographic that we organize these street waste collectors who you have certainly seen on

00:25:22: trips, that you then organize them accordingly, give them a fixed income and bring them into a

00:25:27: cooperative. So these topics, they have actually been taking place for a long time. In other words,

00:25:31: long before CSRD or such discussions even existed. I think that sounds totally exciting. And yes,

00:25:36: that you are already very good at it and also with a lot of actions. There are clear goals and we

00:25:41: really have to bring the recycling industry forward massively now. We have to support them.

00:25:45: I would really like to see a lot of commitment and of course also from politicians that they

00:25:51: really understand that one of them is the goals that are being prescribed. But on the other hand,

00:25:55: they have to help ensure that these industries survive now and that they stay on the market and

00:26:00: so that we are all able to deliver and also meet the targets. Yes, you can hear that transparency

00:26:05: is everything. You can also criticize a lot of all the reporting obligations that we have,

00:26:10: but perhaps these I'll say now vehicles also promote transparency in the market,

00:26:14: then hopefully at some point. Hopefully, yes. We have just briefly touched on the topic of

00:26:19: communication. I think that's totally important because it's precisely because of such, let's say,

00:26:24: critical voices that companies encounter again and again, that I sense such a restraint in

00:26:29: communication that companies don't dare to talk about their sustainability activities because

00:26:34: they may not be at the end of their rope yet or because they are not yet finished or because

00:26:38: they are perhaps still very much in their beginning. I would be interested to know what you think about

00:26:43: it because I always try to motivate and say that it is better to communicate that you are doing

00:26:49: something but you are still at the beginning, that you have not yet reached your goal, then not to

00:26:54: communicate at all because that also has an effect on the customers, to the consumers, to the partners,

00:26:59: because otherwise it looks like you are doing nothing. How do you deal with that? And the second

00:27:04: question would actually be what would you recommend to our listeners on how to deal with the topic?

00:27:09: So just go outside and take the people with you. We talk a lot about taking people along,

00:27:13: about collaboration, about raising awareness, but we are sometimes very, very cautious for cultural

00:27:20: reasons. These are very important points and if I go into the first part of your question, so I'm

00:27:25: with you, it's better to report on what's going well, what's not going so well or that you're on

00:27:30: your way than not talking at all. I think that's very difficult or to go more in the direction of

00:27:35: greenwashing. I mean this is now being successfully put a stop to, thank God. I think it has so much

00:27:40: to do with trust and when I look at consumers now they ultimately want to be able to rely on the fact

00:27:44: that what is claimed or what is communicated, when it is communicated, that it is really true,

00:27:50: that it is authentic, that it is true and that you can do that even if necessary, if you are

00:27:55: interested, that you can learn more details. It really doesn't hurt anyone or it doesn't really

00:27:59: hurt to say, "We still have a gap, we have a problem and that's how I've always been on the road."

00:28:04: So also when I speak to the bottling industry I have said, "I will not only tell you what is

00:28:08: possible, I will also tell you what is not possible and then we will work together to make it possible

00:28:14: and I believe that is at least from my perspective the more correct way." At least that's the way I

00:28:18: work. And we really have to get there and then I think we will also create a much better understanding

00:28:23: of why certain things are so complex, why they take so long, why a lot of things are simply not so

00:28:28: easy and I really see that as the task of NGOs and/or of other quite critical stakeholders to

00:28:33: clarify this. And the second part of your question was, so I think overall it's probably the better

00:28:38: way for everyone or certainly the better way if you say, "Yes, we took a wrong turn somehow,

00:28:43: was a mistake, we just have to sort ourselves out again." And I think that's the topic of

00:28:48: error culture and also admitting a bit, "Yes, it was an attempt, it just didn't work." I think

00:28:52: that's better than working on something for years, always claiming to the outside world that everything

00:28:57: is fine, everything works and then trying somewhere to cheat it in, that's difficult. Especially in

00:29:02: the area of sustainability, I think it's important to start with the youngest children that we don't

00:29:07: just see that it's somehow a burden, a burden, something that is somehow totally complicated

00:29:12: that simply requires me to make sacrifices. It's just a lot of fun. So I think sustainability is

00:29:17: such an exciting topic. We are surrounded by ecological issues, by social issues and we have

00:29:24: to take the youngest children with us actually who have a completely different approach anyway with

00:29:29: their empathy, with their curiosity. And I believe that if we manage to do that, and that's where we

00:29:34: come up with the topic education on the topic of communication. And for me, the topic of education

00:29:40: is so blatantly important, we have to think completely differently so that we really see

00:29:44: this sustainability as a good experience. We can also see that this has now become very unpopular

00:29:48: with many. Of course, you are also worried about yourself, about your economic condition, that

00:29:53: is also clear. It is certainly difficult and if there is perhaps not enough money even in the

00:29:58: company, then of course you don't deal with sustainability at first. Although I always think

00:30:03: that if you implement this well from the beginning, then you will ultimately save so much. And I

00:30:08: believe that we will not be able to do so much, must also get back to the point where it is simply

00:30:13: important but that it is also enjoyable. Yes, and sustainability can also be a driver of profitability

00:30:18: and marketability. You say it in five years, it will be your turn under the PPWR to meet certain

00:30:24: requirements. If you don't meet them, then certain packaging may not exist. Exactly. And that alone,

00:30:30: if you look purely from an economic point of view, is also an incentive. But I agree with you,

00:30:35: sustainability has moved a bit. How should I put it into the second row right now in the

00:30:40: current discussion also at the political level? What? I personally think it's a shame and not

00:30:44: worth the whole topic because I really think that as you say, sustainability, there has to be a

00:30:49: cultural change and it starts with our children. But that goes all the way to the corporate structures,

00:30:54: sustainable leadership, continuing to live things, designing new products, looking at the end of a

00:30:59: product from the very beginning. These are all things that help us to really still experience

00:31:04: this earth. Also for our children and for our grandchildren. And I think that's just important

00:31:09: not to give up there and also to take the first step than just to do it. Yes, or rather Caroline

00:31:13: said it, do it. And we also say it at business shift, just do it or simply do it. And we have

00:31:18: learned that the path is not easy. It is a long path. And we don't even know if there is an end

00:31:23: to this path because it will continue to develop and evolve. Unfortunately, we have already reached

00:31:29: the end of our short conversation. Thank you very, very much, Caroline, for being with us.

00:31:33: So I learned a lot about packaging. Actually, sustainable packaging is like a Rubik's Cube,

00:31:39: like a Rubik's Cube that tries to combine environmental compatibility with product protection.

00:31:45: So it's really tricky. And the solution is unfortunately not done in 10 moves, but you

00:31:50: can hear it. They are on their way. I find that very, very exciting. If we want to enter the

00:31:55: circular economy, I think it's important to strike a balance between product protection and

00:31:59: recyclability. But there is no magic solution. Well, and the next time I visit the supermarket,

00:32:06: I'll take a closer look at such a box. So my impression is that there is more technology in

00:32:11: it than in Apollo 11. And I will try it out with the washing machine. If it breaks, I'll get back

00:32:16: to you, Caroline. So in that respect, you can't get out of it. So thank you very much again,

00:32:20: Caroline. And thank you, Bahar, for joining us today and that we gained such exciting insights

00:32:24: about packaging. And to you out there, let Caroline's enthusiasm infect you, exchange ideas,

00:32:30: maybe even try it out with the washing machine. If that doesn't work, you can contact Tetra Pak

00:32:35: and maybe you'll try a few things and maybe you'll soon find out for yourself that one or the other

00:32:39: works very, very well. Get in touch with us if you can manage the packaging revolution and then

00:32:44: maybe we'll also get into conversation on our podcast. And who would have thought that

00:32:48: cartons could provide so much to talk about for us? And again, a big thank you to everyone out

00:32:53: there who was there. I hope we were able to inspire you, especially Caroline, and I'm very, very sure

00:32:57: of that. And if you want to learn more about sustainability in business, just stay tuned.

00:33:05: Subscribe to our podcast and we will bring you the most interesting tips and stories on the

00:33:11: topic of sustainability in business, innovation and transformation in a resource efficient way

00:33:17: directly into your ear canal. You can receive us wherever podcasts are available and wherever you

00:33:24: are in the home office, in the car, in the bathroom, while ironing, walking the dog in nature with a

00:33:29: child, comb or dog. And as always, you can find all the information under our show notes. And don't

00:33:35: forget change even in business always starts with ourselves. So until next time, your business shift,

00:33:43: business shift, the podcast for decision makers and executives who want to deal with the topic of

00:33:48: sustainability in a sustainable way. Stay curious. Bye bye.

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